Freeware Development and Rivet Counters

I very much appreciate the effort of the developers, paid and otherwise, because there is no way I can do what they do. I don't know if developers can see who is downloading their products here in the SOH. If I'm not saying anything its just because I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, or it just doesn't fit my FSX style.

Glenn
 
Ah....probably 3 variations of the same theme...depending on the scenario....

Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - criticize.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - count rivets.


As for Dino....his stuff is just brilliant......now if only he could concede that a Thud is 'almost' a carrier bird...[it has a hook] ... and could/would do one to the class/standard of his Cat ....;)
 
FS wouldn't be anywhere without dedicated developers - freeware or pay. It's the designers, modelers, scenery designers, and re-painters that have made flight simming what it is; it would get pretty old pretty fast with just the base packs. I maintain that rivet counters have only three places in this world: NASA, aircraft manufacturers, and judging Grand Champions at Oshkosh for the EAA.

N.
 
aeronca1 said:
Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!
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now thats funny..i built a model of my first hobby stock,i used the correct year and model of the real pontiac ,but i left the body panels straight,without dents,as the car was on its first day of racing.i did in fact though modify the body with the correct fender cutouts,front end mods ect,scratch built roll cage exactly as it was in the real car,even with the trans cooler mounted behind me as in the real car...i used an ALPS dry ink printer and decal paper to make my own decals exactly as they were on the car in may of 1980.

i posted photos of the real car and of the model on a modelers website in 1998-99 and they tore it apart...one guy even told me that i shouldnt try to build a model of a real car if i dont have insight into the real item!!!,i reminded him that i not only drove the real thing,but myself and my "crew" built the real thing...and he called me a liar!!!

i never went back to that website again....
 
If I had a "punch someone in the face over the internet" machine, I would hold the highscore.
Then again, it's enough to ask me for a model feature or a paint or something equally ignorant of my so far completed work that's enough to tick me off.
And still one goes on and on and on and on...


Also, ever since "realism" and "eye candy" took over MSFS, the number of arseholes frequenting the various forums seems to have sprung up by a magnitude of ten...thousand. Not necessarily here, mind you, but definitely in other forums.



Stay strong, fellas. Do what you have to do and stick to the satisfactory mental image of your fist punching a fuzzily imagined face, should things get a bit rough.
 
kilo delta said:
It's been said many times before here...but..

The developer should build THEIR model first and foremost to THEIR OWN satisfaction. If the end user wants to nitpick or ridicule the end result then in the words of one of our own freeware dev's (Bjoern, a guy who got up off his ass and taught himself how to build some excellent freeware FS models) "they can f...... f... right off"


:icon_lol:
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Bjoern said:
If I had a "punch someone in the face over the internet" machine, I would hold the highscore.
Then again, it's enough to ask me for a model feature or a paint or something equally ignorant of my so far completed work that's enough to tick me off.
And still one goes on and on and on and on...


Also, ever since "realism" and "eye candy" took over MSFS, the number of arseholes frequenting the various forums seems to have sprung up by a magnitude of ten...thousand. Not necessarily here, mind you, but definitely in other forums.



Stay strong, fellas. Do what you have to do and stick to the satisfactory mental image of your fist punching a fuzzily imagined face, should things get a bit rough.
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I just KNEW that you'd comment in this thread! :p :icon_lol:
 
I'm not sure I agree with the comments that freeware painters / developers aren't appreciated. A few may make negative comment, but is it perhaps that these stand out and get remembered ?

I'm a relatively quiet forum user on here, but really so appreciate the effort that people put in and I'm confident that many more are like me. Please don't form negative conclusions because of a few comments. It's spoiling your fun doing the great work you do and will spoil the fun of 'takers' like myself who don't have the skills to do what you guys do but rely on you.

Chins up guys, too many negative waves floating around. now get that paint brush back out :salute:
 
ViperPilot2 said:
Hello, Don!

It's been a while, but good to see you again! Incidentally I have a couple of your earlier works in my Hangar; the Lockheed AL-60 and your Pilatus Porter, which I use all the time, along with a few of your Alaska scenery packages. (Talk about oldies...) :p

View attachment 91616
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Man, you have some of my first planes! LOL! I redid the Porter totally but never uploaded it. I am actually digging through the old sceneries and looking at some of the old macros I made and converting them over to library items for my Instant Scenery. I have too many hobbies now and bounce around between them. Between work, simming, plastic modeling and model railroading, I stay fairly busy! LOL! I do still have my bush site as well. Drop on by! Address is on my signature.

Don
 
My take on it...

I strongly agree with the premise that persistent, rudely presented commentary from an end user of freeware or payware is abhorrent. On that note though, we can't be too quick to jump on anyone offering advice to a modeler/developer. I've seen a few instances in the hobby of a crowd using aggressive, harsh language against someone who is politely, gently presenting a critique that may be able to be addressed.

There are some in the community that feel that freeware should not be critiqued at all at any level, no matter how polite or factually correct the end user is, but I think this mindset is a disservice to advancing the flight simulation hobby.

If I try out a freeware aircraft for example, and it's one that I know a fair bit about, perhaps have real-world experience on, or just see something out of place...I should be able to gently suggest a fix or improvement. It probably relates to a cosmetic or minor functional trait that is not "necessary" for the addon to work correctly, but enhances accuracy. Suggesting this to our developers and encouraging improvement, I believe, is a positive thing for our hobby if presented correctly. If we didn't encourage improvement, again....politely....we would be years behind in addon progress in terms of fidelity.

The above is admittedly difficult for a community to put in practice though, since everyone has a different line/boundary as to what is helpful critique and what is considered "rivet counting".
As mentioned, this line can be anywhere from: Absolutely no critique whatsoever.....to rude remarks.

All in all, I feel that the flightsim community should be free to constructively critique freeware and payware releases. It's the angry remarks and persistence after being told "it won't be fixed" multiple times that seems to be the problem, but we can't halt addon advancement by applying a blanket "no critiquing" statement on freeware or any other addon type.

Just my opinion...
 
1979 .. I'm only a newbie 83 simmer and thought now how can i count the rivet , mix the concrete and paint the walls and plant the trees ... oh and park the cars ... :icon_lol: Christchurch , New Zealand now for the build ... one person missing is our Tim "Piglet" Conrad ... now back to building a new airports is what i did for the so many and much talent people covering ... the aircraft ...
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CDVtR.jpg

So many Freeware Developers and some bloody great Rivet counters .. The Marks , Milton's and the Manfred's to the Paul's and PutPuts .. gawd the list go's on .. Dino's to the JKs to the Jans
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It's not so much what you say but how you say it. I think that many comments that are made and seem nasty are those who speak English as a second language. But, as has been pointed out, there are those 1% ers who are never satisfied.

I am guilty of not giving positive comments to all those developers who further our hobby. I hope to change this in the future. We all should!

Bob
 
I don't have a single freeware aircraft in my hangar but I am certainly thankful for all of the free repaints out there. I guess the down side of constantly having bleeding edge payware come out is that it raises my expectations for all addons. Repaints are a fun way to enjoy both freeware and payware at the same time. :ernae:
 
From a practical perspective.....

Depicting all the rivets on a model would make the model look odd. Its a matter of scale. No matter what you try to do, your model is going to be depicted on monitor that may or may not be capable of depicting HDMI, or will be limited in size, or....(you can continue adding).

The point is that sometimes you don't want to depict with complete accuracy, because it won't LOOK accurate.

I give you "Barbie" as an example. Completely natural looking model as a little doll....bizarre if scaled up to full size.

And.....it's just plain rude to offer criticism if it's not done in the right vein and with an eye towards being constructive. It's also wise not to be too sensitive if you put anything (freeware or otherwise) out to the public.
 
Hahahah

b52bob said:
It's not so much what you say but how you say it. I think that many comments that are made and seem nasty are those who speak English as a second language. But, as has been pointed out, there are those 1% ers who are never satisfied.

I am guilty of not giving positive comments to all those developers who further our hobby. I hope to change this in the future. We all should!

Bob
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Coming from a person who speaks English impeccably... as well as 5 other languages... I must point out that a reference to ESL speakers (English as a second language) [which I taught for the US Army after I retired...
could also be misinterpreted... and this brings me to the point of your comment... as you well point out... "It's not so much what you say as how you say it" (sic)
So I would like to add... Fair comments can be misinterpreted or taken offense by a lot of people.... ESL speakers...and natives alike... when they are made by BOTH US and UK speakers who more often than not... seem to have missed a whole bunch of periods in grammar, spelling, punctuation, usage, you name it... in Home Room...
In other words... people can also be "put off" by sanctimonious comments made in atrocious English...masquerading as "officious" language...
The first thought that comes to my mind often enough when I hear them is:
"How valid can this comment be when the person making it does not seem to know the difference between THERE and THEIR... or GOOD and WELL... AFFECT and EFFECT...etc.
Especially in the US... (and Italy as well) a lot of folks take ESL speech to mean the person is not very smart... when the guy with the accent or foreign transliterations might be a real "brain"
In Italy especially (where I lived for many years)... and where they have formal and familiar ways to address conversation... people almost always address "third world" immigrants with "Tu" [familiar] but
Americans, Germans, etc. with "Lei" (YOU formal]... never for a moment thinking that this address is condescending and paternalistic.
As an obvious American... I never had an Italian give me the "Tu" without having been previously introduced... Yet.. all Africans and Arabs.. are "Tu"... [kind of like all young black men were "boy" and
older men "Uncle" in the Old South ]... and guess what? Whenever I pointed this out to Italian folks... they were surprised at never having thought about the effects of their words on foreign folks....
Just like you said... It is not WHAT but HOW!!! The art of communication seems destined to be a "lost art"....
 
I did a count up today and discoverd i'm registered at around 18 diferent FS forums. Of those, It's VERY apparent, that here at SOH, repaints and other freeware, are in fact received in a far, FAR more grateful spirit than any of the others. Much as I agree fundamentally with the OP, I also believe, than GENERALLY speaking, SOH differs somewhat.

In my last paid line of work:salute:, I once quite literally saved the lives of 5 guys, getting seriously injured in the process. It was just one of those once in a lifetime opportunities to make it count. Of these guys, I receive regular Christmas cards form 4 of them, and have done so for years. The 5th guy said at the time, and I'll quote precisely... "hey dude, it's you're job. It's what you're paid for. Don't expect me to be grateful". I learn't to take those kind of comments with more than just a little salt (and even a a smile):icon_lol:

We mortals are made up of all sorts, and what a boring place this ammazing world would be if we were all the same.

Make of that what you will.
 
Thanks to all you creators.

As a rare poster,my first here,I would sincerely like to thank
you people who have given this old guy such joy. I have a lot
of treasures I cherish both scenery,models and repaints.

Maybe there are a lot of us out there that find posting a little
difficult. Every person who has given freely their talents should
be applauded and thanked. I have been remiss in doing so.

Please don,t let the rivet counters win.

Regards Anthin
 
When it comes to freeware, my attitude is to not look the gift horse in the mouth. I am grateful for all of the freeware developers out there and the majority of the add-ons in my install of FS9 and FSX are freeware. As for criticizing freeware, if I feel that I can give advice in a constructive manner, I will, otherwise, I keep my mouth shut. If the skin is not perfect, there is the possibility that I can make corrections. There are some really incredible freeware offerings available to us and a lot of that freeware is at least to the level of quality and detail as payware.

I give a big round of applause to the freeware developers. :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
 
I am certainly no rivet counter, I enjoy the work of many of our freeware creators, and I don't believe I've ever uttered any words of critique constructive or otherwise for a freeware model or scenery. However I do wonder about this post a bit. I guess what I'm asking is why do you create freeware? If it's to contribute to the community, learn new skills, give back to what has been given before are all very noble ideals. I just wonder if all that is true, why the words of a few idiots puts that in jeopardy. I think if the reason to create freeware is to have everyone in the community kiss your ass and praise your name to the highest, that's probably just as unhealthy for us all as the rivet counters are. I think that the work of freeware artists should be encouraged at all times, but if we're talking about entitlements, I believe freeware creators are entitled to respect and gratitude from the community. not universal acclaim. in other words, expect that some people are going to be morons, and carry on.
 
rdaniell said:
I really got a good laugh out of this post ShawnG.....I realize that I've only uploaded a few scenery projects but, I certainly was not hoping someone would stop by and kiss my butt. He, He, I'm kinda particular who I drop my hanes for anyway.

Now if I can find my "serious" persona....a screen shot or a simple "Thank You" every once in a while does wonders for my motivation. I expect it has the same effect upon others who share their work here at the Outhouse. Before I lose my serious persona, There are probably as many different reasons for folks doing freeware as there are people doing it.

OK...that's as long as I can remain serious. Heck! It's the beginning of the weekend and a bunch of us ole farts are planning a get away. I sure hope Don has not lost the key to the fuel truck....again.

RD
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sure, I agree. I wasn't saying all freeware devs are looking for that. I just don't agree with "no criticism is allowed on freeware" even if I don't generally have an inclination to criticize.
 
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