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FSAddon European sales will stop

Dumonceau said:
So in other words relocating the store to a place/server outside the EU would do the trick?

Dumonceau
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Nope.

Although it will be difficult for the EU to 'attack' foreign sellers, officially ANY store selling to a EU citizen needs to charge the VAT in that citizen's country and PAY the respective government its share. It does NOT make a difference whether you are in the EU, the US or China !
Of course having a store and paying taxes inside the EU makes it that much more easy for them to fine you into oblivion if you do not adhere to these unfair tax law !

But it is a mistake to believe that US companies do not have t pay. In fact, they HAD to pay already since 2003 ! But most just ignored it and it wasn't well known to the majority of store owners and customers.
 
Mickey D said:
Developers who supply the retailers are not affected as they don't sell direct. Happy New Year. :(
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Not true either.

1. Depending upon location of the retailer's customer and the retailer's shop, products MAY become more expensive for the consumer. And hence deter from buying !

2. Developers may be forced to go to a retailer/distributor that charges more than their previous one (!)

3. Remaining retailers will get a larger share of the market, enhancing their 'monopoly' and allowing them to take an even bigger cut of the developer's share. Not saying they will, but they could. Less competition !

This new law is bad for ALL involved: customers, developers and small companies.

The only ones benefiting are the EU governments and the larger retailers.

It does NOT change anything for customers OUTSIDE the EU buying from within. It does not change anything for the ones downloading pirated software. And it does not change a thing for Amazon.com, which was the primary goal of this law !
 
DaveB said:
I've been charged VAT (at the going rate) by Simmarket for ages so there's nothing new in this. Disappointingly.. the price quoted by default in Euros is generally what you end up paying in GBP which hardly seems right. How some folk have managed to avoid this in the past (and I know a few that have) is beyond me but there you go. The only sure fire way to know what you're gonna end up paying is to buy (in the UK) from UK vendors as these generally publish the total cost including VAT.

ATB
DaveB:)
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Unfortunately it was correct. The UK is part of the EU and hence EU companies were forced to charge their local VAT to UK customers all along. Not simMarket's fault.
 
Francois said:
...
This new law is bad for ALL involved: customers, developers and small companies.

The only ones benefiting are the EU governments and the larger retailers.
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I couldn't agree more.

It does NOT change anything for customers OUTSIDE the EU buying from within. It does not change anything for the ones downloading pirated software. And it does not change a thing for Amazon.com, which was the primary goal of this law !
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Even that may not be true in near future. Didn't you know that EU and USA are planing a free trade pact. This is made in secret. At least in my country (Finland) politicians don't speak anything about this (though those that are at the top of hierarcy must know it). I think it is the same thing in other EU countries. If this comes true this new taxing system will possibly be used also in trade between EU and USA.

Politicians say that they are conserned of constantly growing unimployment. This policy increases it because small companies are the ones that emply most! Only bureaucrats can have confidence in their jobs.

Pekka
 
PHo17 said:
Even that may not be true in near future. Didn't you know that EU and USA are planing a free trade pact. This is made in secret. At least in my country (Finland) politicians don't speak anything about this (though those that are at the top of hierarcy must know it). I think it is the same thing in other EU countries. If this comes true this new taxing system will possibly be used also in trade between EU and USA.
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Just for the record, the free trade negotiations between EU and USA are by no means a secret. The fact is that those negotiations just started and most likely will take several years IF an agreement is finally achieved. There is probably not much to tell at this point and free trade agreement is a package where practically every industry sector will be dealt separately and both parties do have interests they would like to protect. It is and will be a sweaty negotiation. Most likely the most difficult areas concern all heavy industry products, such as cars and industrial machinery and possibly agriculture products. Local politicians aren't informing people also because the negotiations aren't made on a national level, but solely between EU and USA. The aim is clear, remove the protectionism such as customs and other import-export limiting factors between these two parties.

I'm all for free trade and removing protectionism so I really hope that an agreement is achieved, even if it takes a decade.

I also agree that EU is doing stupid things with many of its regulation. It seems that in most cases these regulations hurt the smaller companies and entrepreneurs the most and larger ones with proper accounting and legal resources thrive. In the long run this drives smaller companies out of business or it simply moves away outside of the EU, where companies don't have to adhere to these rules. All this again decreases competition within EU, diminishes tax revenue and increases unemployment. Improved competition was paradoxically one of the main goals of the EU with its one economic area. Not good.
 
Mickey D said:
The new rules only affect direct sales of digital data. If you sell through a third party site the new regulations do NOT apply to the developer. See the UK government Flow Chart. It is quite plain. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/390300/VAT_MOSS_Flow_chart.pdf
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Indeed. And maybe you haven't noticed, but 'third parties' cost money.... and are more expensive then providing one's own shop. Not to mention the lack of control over support and possible special deals.
I sell through third parties and will of course continue to do so, but it is NOT the same as having one's own webshop......
 
our politicians and tax bureaucrats have decided that they will rather have people go to welfare and spend tax payers money than to work hard and make an honest buck.
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Welcome to the beginnings of the new world order, one world government.How many here in the states are finding the "affordable health care act" isn't so affordable.Its a shame we as citizens have lost sight of what the USA was so strongly fought for when we first broke away from the British controls. Now we all have been reeled back in, and everyone is just letting it happen. One day that Constitution of our is going to be all but a memory; a piece of paper in a glass cabinet in some Museum we can go view and think of what once was.You probably think I'm full of it, crazy talk: We all need to wake up!!
 
From what I can understand, the British Government are trying to "fix it" so that this doesn't apply to small retailers. It's the big boy's like Amazon and Apple that their gunning for.


Ian
 
Yes...... Amazon only pays 3-7% in Luxembourg..... But the 'fixing' does not apply to every shop owner and certainly NOT for those outside of the UK. Also, if you have other activities as well, you will not 'fit in' :-(
 
Francois said:
Indeed. And maybe you haven't noticed, but 'third parties' cost money.... and are more expensive then providing one's own shop. Not to mention the lack of control over support and possible special deals.
I sell through third parties and will of course continue to do so, but it is NOT the same as having one's own webshop......
Click to expand...

Well of course I've "noticed" and it's my choice if only I don't have the "hassle" of dealing with the EU. Any "cost" is built in to the price and I can let someone else do all the leg work of marketing etc. while I relax and let someone peel me a grape. :)
 
YOU don't have the hassle in any case, buying from me or elsewhere, but my authors and I have the financial loss in an already skinny business. That is why I am not happy with the EU rulings...... nothing to do with the customers of course.
 
I understand your frustrations Francois and as a supplier outside of the EU it is going to affect us as well.

Where previously we sold with no tax to overseas (non Australian) customers, we now have to include the VAT of the country or state of the purchaser.

We have to join a "One Stop Shop" of our choice, selected from a list given by the VAT centre in Europe and report quarterly with payments. If we don't do this we have to register and report separately to every country or sate in which the customer resides. Can you imagine the paper work? This will no doubt incur transaction costs for banks, exchange rates and so on. And all for a taxation system that does not exist in Australia. We have GST at 10% payable on locally consumed goods. Bet that is going to change this year too now.

Great environment in which to attempt to make a small business fly.

Now we have bloody great flocks of government crows pecking at us the second we leave the ground. Another great move forward by the bureaucrats. Thanks very much fellas.

I can't believe however, that withdrawing sales of any kind is going to help anybody. The idiots win, the consumer loses. And you my friend lose most of all. OK we all become tax collectors for a country we have never visited. So what's new these days?
 
Hello there Down Under !! Yes, exactly !

Well, I am not withdrawing sales altogether, but I AM having to close my shop (already did) to implement another with software that is capable of VAT shenanigans..... and even after doing so, I will NOT sell to European customers because of the added administrative burden (you described it very well). It is just too much work for one guy alone who ALSO has to do other things to stay afloat !

My new shop will sell to non-EU citizens and also non-download products to everybody. Using the 'old VAT system'. Until next year when they probably will also include tangible products nuder the same rules.

The irony of it all is that they THOUGHT they were catching Amazon from not paying taxes. They wanted to punish THEM..... instead Amazon is laughing their heads off, because not only are they not paying ANYTHING in addition..... the CUSTOMERS are paying for the extra taxes ! But ALSO they are getting LOTS of small businesses to sell VIA THEM now and hence generate even more income for them!

This is a LOSE-LOSE plan for small business and indeed, individual FREEDOM of labor, brough upon us by the morons from Brussels !

Don't fear..... FSAddon products can be found on simMarket.com and Aerosoft.com (who both have the VATMOSS arrangement in place I am told) and by FSPilotShop.com (I will need to check their VAT arrangements though, because I am not convinced they are fully licensed for EU sales yet)

Onwards through the fog .......
 
What worries me most Francois is that somebody actually thought this would be a good idea. Remind me not to share a lifeboat with them.

Have a great year anyway and bugger the lot of 'em.
 
bazzar said:
What worries me most Francois is that somebody actually thought this would be a good idea. Remind me not to share a lifeboat with them.

Have a great year anyway and bugger the lot of 'em.
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As already correctly mentioned by Lawman, this isn't an "European" idea born in the European Parliament . It is there just because the National Ministers of Finance want to have their own share of the taxes. The only way to arrange this for all countries in the European community is in the European Parliament.

Although the practical implementation perhaps doesn't deserve the price for the best Idea of the Century, I think in general it isn't a very odd idea that (local) VAT is applicable on internet sales as well. Especially as tax-rates are decided on National level, based on National circumstances.

The only way to get the implementation much easier is to agree on one single tax-rate inside the European community. But I don't think the readers of the Daily Mail and similar newspapers, will like these sort of decision to be taken in the European Parliament.

I understand the decision taken by Francois and I respect his choices in this, but its a personal decision and really not bigger than that.

Cheers,
Huub
 
huub vink said:
As already correctly mentioned by Lawman, this isn't an "European" idea born in the European Parliament . It is there just because the National Ministers of Finance want to have their own share of the taxes. The only way to arrange this for all countries in the European community is in the European Parliament.

Although the practical implementation perhaps doesn't deserve the price for the best Idea of the Century, I think in general it isn't a very odd idea that (local) VAT is applicable on internet sales as well. Especially as tax-rates are decided on National level, based on National circumstances.

The only way to get the implementation much easier is to agree on one single tax-rate inside the European community. But I don't think the readers of the Daily Mail and similar newspapers, will like these sort of decision to be taken in the European Parliament.

I understand the decision taken by Francois and I respect his choices in this, but its a personal decision and really not bigger than that.

Cheers,
Huub
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with you Huub! Thanks for sharing this.

Dumonceau
 
I doubt there will be ANY change taken on this, in spite of growing protest and a growing number of small businesses going out of (European) business.

I have initated request for the additional VAT registration program (MOSS) now, because splitting the shop (ANY shop) into EU and non-EU, digital and non-digital is even a BIGGER burden than the added administration.
I am in no way certain I will be able to manage it all, but refuse to give up without a fight.
 
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