Glenview NAS

I looked for pictures of Glenview in two places. One is Paul Freeman's Abandoned and Little-Known Airfields, and the other is Google; I just asked Mr. Google for images of Glenview.

On the Freeman site it's in the Chicago Northern section, about half-way down the page. There's a photo "looking east" that shows the terminal facing east with the long runway in front of it, to the east, just like Maskrider's scenery.

It must have been on Google images that I saw a photo that shows the runway markings just as they are in Maskrider's scenery, with the north-south runway marked 35 at the northern end (heading 170*) and 17 on the southern end (heading 350*).

Further down the page on the Freeman site are a couple blimp shots, one showing a blimp at one of those portable mooring masts.

In the late 1940s the reserve bases were at their peak. There was a virtually unlimited supply of surplus aircraft and discharged pilots, the planes bought and paid for and the pilots happy to fly for part time wages. The Reserve bases in the big metropolitan areas each had squadrons of all kinds: fighter, attack, anti-submatine, patrol, utility, transport and blimp, usually with multiple squadrons of each type. There might be five or six each of fighter squadrons and attack squadrons, two or three anti-sub, patrol bomber squadrons, and a couple utility squadrons and blimp squadrons. They all used aircraft from a base pool, so the squadrons didn't have unique markings. The bases didn't have any blimps; all the Navy's blimps were home ported at Lakehurst, and the Reserve squadrons would fly a crew to Lakehurst to pick up a blimp for drills, then return it afterwards. Blimps designated for Reserve use had "U.S. Naval Reserve" markings on their envelopes, and they all had NAS Lakehurst lettering on their control cars. Each Reserve base had one or two of those portable blimp masts that could be wheeled into position on the field and wheeled out of the way when not in use.

As an aside, I sometimes scratch my head wondering how a portable mast on wheels could hold a blimp in a breeze. They must have used plenty of really strong tie-downs!
 
Today I plan to fiddle with a flatten for Glenview to see if I can stabilize the ramps and runways from all viewing ankles. It's easy enough to make a flatten file. The question is whether it will solve the problem. By the end of the day we'll find out. If it doesn't work, I will be fresh out of ideas and we may just have to live with the issue, unless someone who knows more than me comes up with a solution.

I will probably also whip up an AI traffic file that uses planes the most all Golden Wingers would have, to populate the base with airplanes without having to make static models. I hesitate to post my static models because those are a major alteration of the flyable planes they're made from, and I feel that I'd have to get permission, which is more trouble than I care to go to. I might include statics of a couple of Paul Clawson's planes; I can't ask permission because he's no longer with us, but he never objected to any fiddling I or anyone else did with his models. But first I want to see if I can do something worthwhile with a flatten file.
 
Flatten - Not A Solution

OK, I made a flatten file and the ramps still disappear from certain low-altitude viewing angles.

I tried adjusting the elevation in increments, but it made no difference. Clearly flattening the airport isn't a solution.

I'm all out of ideas. Maybe someone else can think of something.

:banghead:
 
try using afcad to set the height of taxiways etc that should fix it

ttfn

Pete

Tried that. Added a bit of elevation, subtracted a bit, neither had any effect at all, except to make the AI planes hover over the pavement of sink into it.
 
AI Scheme

I just uploaded an AI scheme for pre-WW2 Glenview that's all AI, no static models. The planes are SWingman's J2F-4 Duck, Paul Clawson's SBC-4 Helldiver and Grumman FF-1, Scrubby's N3N Yellow Peril, and the Golden Wings DC-3 and Lockheed 10.

I included a few skins that not everyone might have.

Yes, I know that the Navy didn't have the DC-3/R4D before the war, but they had the DC-2/R3D, and I think they look enough alike for AI use.

Here's a screenie that shows the Chicago Reserve planes:
 
More oddity

Just noticed something else odd. My static N3N's at Glenview cast no shadows on the ramp. Shadows are enabled in the model, and the same model casts shadows at other airports. The other static models cast shadows on the ramp elsewhere on the field, and the AI planes near the N3Ns cast shadows, as does the flyable plane when put in that location. Very, very odd.
:dizzy:
I guess stuff like this is bound to happen when we use scenery designed for a different sim.

I recall that the ground showing through the runways and taxiways was a problem at many airports in FS2002, and someone released a whole passel of fixes. I just looked at one, and it's a bgl file, but not an AFCAD-type bgl. I wonder if someone here understands this stuff well enough, and has the required software, to open and reverse engineer one of those files and make it into a fix for Glenview.
 
Mick, your attached AI.file. In properties it reads as: PHP File; Hyper Text Transfer Protocol. In fact ALL forum attachments her at SOH are so labeled, not just yours. Here is how the above looks when I open it:

PK   CO0HX`â¶s   FlightPlans_GlenviewGW.txtstV6Ô v3Ô11PÕ wuõÖñt Ò1Ö7°°20 "ÓÐÄT04SÐ Ò142Öñös
Õ1A¨2Á©Š—ËÑYÙHÇÏ(XÇh…aØ°.j ÓfŠb8P¦›
œC̃ëÇb0Ä<C¨0  PK   CO0Hæ£>nã   Traffic_GlenviewGW.bglcd›;ƒaURú` V0P:)§¶ã–=…EŒˆX Jƒð f‚Ê3BÙ"@3’ˆíÏaÃÄ@f}2¼ýœBY 4c‚;Cì힃‡¡êT z쀄Tlƒ£§‚››®‘‚sFfrbz>ƒ ÔĐŒŸQ0Ã` ¦Eþé©@ú> ¤õ@Î…p°›!Ø8
q›÷žïA– ¼ad8ÿùög¤dÈh© `ò9H?P0$`lê˜ª9àª% ž±“\~…€ª@l˜«þBéÐd PK   O0HnP2+ -  Aircraft_GlenviewGW.txtstV6Ô143ÐQrôTpsÓ5RpÎÈLNLÏWâårtV6Ò14€Èù+ PK
 ­–/HmRùÛ" "  Airports_GlenviewGW.txtKNBU,N42* 05.48',W87* 49.20',641
PK    CO0HX`â¶s    ¶ FlightPlans_GlenviewGW.txtPK    CO0Hæ£>nã   ¶« Traffic_GlenviewGW.bglPK    O0HnP2+ -   ¶Â Aircraft_GlenviewGW.txtPK
 ­–/HmRùÛ" "   ¶" Airports_GlenviewGW.txtPK    y

Must be some sort of computer thing that I don't know about. Maybe some one else has an idea.
 
Pretty strange! I just downloaded that same attachment to check it out and it came down as a regular zip file, and when I opened it, it had exactly what it's supposed to have inside it.

I can't imagine why it came down differently to you!
:dizzy:

This reminds me to delete that attachment now that I've uploaded a much better package to the library.
 
Oops!

Just found an eror in the Glenview AI pack.

I've asked Rami to delete it and I'm uploading a fixed version now.
 
runway headings

Mick, your AFCAD has runway heading as 173 and base end designator as 35. if you swap the base 35 and the reciprocal 17, I think they will have them labeled correctly.
 
Mick, your AFCAD has runway heading as 173 and base end designator as 35. if you swap the base 35 and the reciprocal 17, I think they will have them labeled correctly.

Yes, they'd be labeled geographically correct - but in the AFCAD file only - not in the scenery, because the numbers on the runways in the scenery are in the scenery, they don't come from the AFCAD.

The AFCAD doesn't have visible runway numbers. In fact, it doesn't have visible runways or visible anything. It has invisible runways with no markings, no ramps, no taxiways except invisible apron routes for AI, and an invisible NDB that only an ADF receiver can "see" and invisible parking spaces. Nothing on the AFCAD is visible in the sim. Everything you see in the sim is in the scenery, not the AFCAD. Even the night lighting is in the scenery, not the AFCAD. Remove the AFCAD and everything will look exactly the same, except you won't see any AI planes and you won't find the field on the Select Airport menu.

All the AFCAD does is make the airport show up on the Select Airport menu, and make it capable of handling FS9 AI (which is apparently very different from CFS2 AI.) The AFCAD's numbers only show up on the Select Airport menu. The numbers you see on the runway in the sim are in Maskrider's scenery.

For consistency, I made the AFCAD numbers match the ones in the scenery, and photos show that the numbers in the scenery match the numbers on the real runways at the real Glenview. That's the mystery, because the numbers are clearly reversed. I find it impossible to imagine how or why the Navy could have painted the runway numbers incorrectly, but the photos show that Maskrider's scenery correctly depicts the real Glenview. In both the scenery and the photos, the number 35 is painted on the north end of the runway, facing south, and the number 17 is painted on the south end of the runway facing north. When you enter the south end of the runway for take-off to the north, or approach it for landing to the north, you should see the number 35 greeting you at the near end of the runway, facing you, but you see the number 17 instead. And vise versa at the other end of the runway.

Changing the AFCAD won't change that because the numbers are in the scenery. Changing the scenery, if you knew how, would make the numbering correct, but the scenery would no longer match the photos, which is what has me scratching my head.

It's pretty strange, and I can think of no plausible explanation for it. I'm sure the Navy has known north from south for as long as we've had a Navy, and I'm sure the Navy has known how to mark runways for as long as they've had airfields. Yet photos show that Glenview was as Maskrider depicted it, at least for long enough to have some pictures taken. It just makes no sense at all. It's not an error in the AFCAD and it's not an error in the scenery, so it must be an error on the real airfield, but that seems implausible to the point of being impossible. No sense at all. None...

I would love to see a photo with the numbering correct. That would show that there really was a mistake at the real Glenview and the the Navy spotted it and corrected it. At least that would make more sense than if they made the mistake and left it that way.
 
Mick, I never used AFCAD before and you are entirely correct about what it does. However, when I used it with my KNBU scenery it wiped out the runways, ramps, etc made by ADE. It also changed the name to NRAB Chicago. Here's a photo with markings from 1956 as they should be; however, because of their darkness I wonder if the were put on after the picture was taken. Usually they are white. I've personally flown and driven on these runways and can attest that they were numbered correctly from 1973-1977. I would love to see the photo that shows them reversed. I can't find one anywhere.
 

Attachments

  • Glenview NAS - Glenview IL 1956dir C.jpg
    Glenview NAS - Glenview IL 1956dir C.jpg
    88.1 KB · Views: 6
Mick, I never used AFCAD before and you are entirely correct about what it does. However, when I used it with my KNBU scenery it wiped out the runways, ramps, etc made by ADE. It also changed the name to NRAB Chicago. Here's a photo with markings from 1956 as they should be; however, because of their darkness I wonder if the were put on after the picture was taken. Usually they are white. I've personally flown and driven on these runways and can attest that they were numbered correctly from 1973-1977. I would love to see the photo that shows them reversed. I can't find one anywhere.

Well, that's encouraging! The Navy does indeed know north from south and was alert enough to fix the error. Thank you for posting the photo!

I can imagine how such an error could be made. Until shortly before WW2 (or maybe even after the war started) there weren't any numbered runways - just those big landing circles. The runways were put in during or shortly after the great pre-war base building boom, when the services were enlisting vast numbers of new people, some of whom probably didn't know north from south, or know the runway designation system. Some recently promoted and not well informed chief might have taken a crew out to paint the markings on the new runways and figured the number 35 must go on the north end of the runway. Photos were taken, but soon the error was spotted and corrected. That's pure speculation, but plausible, especially in light the the correction being made. It would be harder to believe that they just left it that way.

I agree that the black numbers look pretty strange, and may have been added to the photo, but I don't see why anyone would bother to do that. Maybe black numbers aren't completely unheard of on near-white concrete runways. That would make sense, even though I haven't seen it done that way before.

I found Glenview photos in two places, and I don't recall which pictures I saw in which place. One source was Paul Freeman's Abandoned & Little-Known Airfields site (Illinois section, Chicago North page), and one was Google Images for "NAS Glenview." If you browse those sources you'll come upon pictures that show the runway numbers opposite of what we see in the pic you posted. One or two even have captions that include comments like, "...looking east..." that confirm the orientation.

The AFCAD names the base NRAB Chicago because it's for Golden Wings and that's the correct name for the pre-war period. That's why the base insignia says Chicago and not Glenview under the graphic. Naval Reserve Aviation Base Chicago didn't get renamed to Naval Air Station Glenview until well into WW2. If I recall correctly, it was NAS Chicago for a brief period in between NRAB Chicago and NAS Glenview. I read about that in the Wikipedia article about Glenview. It gives dates for the name changes, though I don't remember them.

There were similar name changes at other pre-war Reserve Bases. My nearest-to-local one at Squantum, Mass. started out as NRAB Boston and ended up as NAS Squantum, with, if memory serves, a brief period as NRAB Squantum. The others went through similar name changes as first the Reserve units, and then their bases, were called to active duty for the war. Generally the NRAB's were named for the nearby big city whose metro area they served, even if they weren't actually located in the city. When they became NAS's they mostly took the name of the town they were actually located in.

In my classic era sim, "Flight Simulator 1954 - A Half Century of Flight" the AFCAD names the base NAS Glenview. But that's a different time period, a different sim, and a different AFCAD. What we've done here so far is all about the pre-war period when the base was NRAB Chicago.

I haven't done anything yet with NAS Glenview in FS1954 except get the scenery installed. But eventually it will be a thriving post-war Reserve base - in fact, the national headquarters of the Naval Aviation Reserve - and it will be populated with Corsairs, Bearcats, Avengers, Guardians, Catalinas, Privateers, Gooney Birds, Bugsmashers, and even a blimp. But that's not going to happen overnight, or even this week.

That picture reminds me of something that slipped my mind. Our Glenview has no hangars. The real Glenview must have had at least one hangar, even early on. There's what looks like a big hangar (right of and slightly below the terminal) in the photo. I think I should break out Object Manager and put a hangar there.
 
Here's a photo with markings from 1956 as they should be; however, because of their darkness I wonder if the were put on after the picture was taken. Usually they are white. I've personally flown and driven on these runways and can attest that they were numbered correctly from 1973-1977. I would love to see the photo that shows them reversed. I can't find one anywhere.

Those runway numbers are annotations on the photo, and they are correct, as is the north arrow. Pic looks like some kind of orientation graphic. That's the only pic I came up with using Google Search that showed any runway numbers, I couldn't find any reversed numbers either. In later years (by the 1960's I think) only 35/17 and 27/09 were used and the others closed and used as taxiways. I remember being out on that big concrete circle in 1966 with my boot camp buddy, watching the Blue Angels practice.
 
I suspect that in the pre-war period (which was fairly brief, as the Navy didn't take over the field until the late 1930s) that there might not have been any runways, just those big landing circles. There was no reason to put them both in at the same time. They wouldn't have paved the landing circles if they'd expected to put in runways fairly soon after, and visa versa. It seems clear that the runways were laid over the landing circles, so I suspect that he pre-war base just had the landing circles and the runways were added during the war as the base was developed. That's my guess anyway.

If the runways weren't built into the scenery, I think I'd remove them for Golden Wings. But we don't have that option, so I don't have to decide.
 
That idea sounds like it has potential.

I hope someone who's been following this thread knows something about scenery design! I wish I did, but I don't. Making static models from flyable ones and placing library objects with Object Manager is the extent of my scenery expertise.

BTW, I have a bunch of your skins on my FS9 planes. Thank you for sharing them!
 
Maskrider's Pacific War scenery

In case anyone's thinking of trying it, I put Maskrider's Solomons scenery into Golden Wings to see how it would work. Not well. Not well at all. It appears that the coastlines in CFS2 are vastly different from those in FS9. I checked out Henderson Field, Fighter 1 and Fighter 2 in Guadalcanal and the nearby shorelines were a terrible mash-up, horrible looking, with beaches and surf lines out in the ocean and big pools of water inland. The north shore of Guadalcanal looked like a giant wastewater treatment plant. I didn't check out any of the other locations because I knew I didn't want the Guadalcanal fields.

The Pacific War rages in my Golden Wings, so I was hoping the Maskriders scenery would fit in and save me a lot of work. I guess I'll have to just convert Honiora International Airport into a rough approximation of Henderson Field with a modified AFCAD and a few scenery objects, and maybe make Fighter 1 and Fighter 2 from scratch with just excludes, flattens, AFCADs and a few scenery objects to make rough approximations. Those things have been on my to do list for a long time, and they'll probably stay there for a long time.

Meanwhile, we have Renell and Vella LaVella from the Donationware Corsair package, John Sinstrom's WW2 Midway, someone's (I can't recall who's) Marianas airfields, that spectacular Battle of Midway and Coral Sea scenery, and of course Bill Lyons' Marivellas from the Classic Goose package. I know the Marivellas are supposed to be set in the pre-war period, but all the Bettys and Zeroes at the secret Japanese bases wear wartime colors and markings.
 
PHP files

Stoney,

I get that also. The fix is to right click on the attachment and save as. When the window opens direct the file to the folder you want. Then Click on the menu arrow on the right side of the file type field, when that opens your choices should be .PHP file on top and "all.files" on the bottom, select all files. Now rename the file and end with .zip. Click on save!

DAve
 
Back
Top