Yes, and the P-61 pilots flying on just one 2800!
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Just some thoughts i have.....
- Thread starter Cowboy1968
- Start date
Cowboy1968
Charter Member
For ground pounding i love the P-47, but she isn't a dog fighters. That iw why my favorite bird in the F4U Corsair. She is one hell of a ground pounder and she can still dog fight.
tonybones2112
Charter Member
From my reading of history and Mein Kamph(if that book can be read)Hitler's intention from 1923 was to expand into the Eastern regions, Russia. If the historians are correct he wanted no part of eliminating England. He did not have the audacity the Japanese did in attacking Pearl Harbor that it would have taken to conquer England. He hoped the English would sit back and let him have a free hand in Russia. Wshfull thinking on his part. Of course Stalin would have sat back while he ravaged England, estbalished bases in Greenland, and bombed America. Stalin merrily supplied Ger,many with much of their natural resources fior war in the hope he could buy Hitler off.
Hitler's thinking was not that far-reaching, he wanted Russia. That is why he sat and hoped the British would let him run wild in the East and poured 90 percent of his resources into the war in Russia, the most brutal, hateful and bloody conflict in all history. The eastern Front was a world war in itself.
If one man can be found that literally turned the tide and caused Stalin to defeat Hitler it was a Soviet spy in Tokyo who established firmly the Japanese had no intention of invading Siberia, which released approximately 25 Siberian divisions against the Germans and destroyed the Sixth Army at Stalingrad.
Hitler had his moments as a tactician but next to no strategic discernment in my opinion. I think Russia was the key factor in who won WW2, I think Russia's place will determine the victor in WW3. It's coming, it's long overdue, and the pieces are being set in place as I write.
Bonesiavelli
tonybones2112
Charter Member
Tonybones,
One of my contentions is that Italy proved to be Hitler's weakest link. As I understand it, Hitler wanted no part of a war in the Mediterranean. Italy's ill-fated invasion of Greece and the uprising in Yugoslavia meant that he was forced to secure his southern flank before invading Russia. This put Barbarossa approximately six to eight weeks behind schedule. If Hitler had invaded Russia in April rather than June, it's possible that Germany might have gotten through to Moscow and forced negotiations.
The expansion of the war into the Mediterranean meant that Hitler had to split his resources, especially the Luftwaffe. This was not entirely significant in 1941, but into 1942-1943 when the VVS began fighting back with comparable or even superior aircraft, this really came back to bite Germany. Italy's relative incompetence and antiquated equipment only made the situation worse in the Mediterranean; their bombing of Malta and efforts in the desert were largely laughable. If Germany had only focused on the Mediterranean or the Eastern Front, it's entirely possible that he could have been successful. However, when he was forced to fight in both, it was a fight the Third Reich could not win.
One of my contentions is that Italy proved to be Hitler's weakest link. As I understand it, Hitler wanted no part of a war in the Mediterranean. Italy's ill-fated invasion of Greece and the uprising in Yugoslavia meant that he was forced to secure his southern flank before invading Russia. This put Barbarossa approximately six to eight weeks behind schedule. If Hitler had invaded Russia in April rather than June, it's possible that Germany might have gotten through to Moscow and forced negotiations.
The expansion of the war into the Mediterranean meant that Hitler had to split his resources, especially the Luftwaffe. This was not entirely significant in 1941, but into 1942-1943 when the VVS began fighting back with comparable or even superior aircraft, this really came back to bite Germany. Italy's relative incompetence and antiquated equipment only made the situation worse in the Mediterranean; their bombing of Malta and efforts in the desert were largely laughable. If Germany had only focused on the Mediterranean or the Eastern Front, it's entirely possible that he could have been successful. However, when he was forced to fight in both, it was a fight the Third Reich could not win.
bearcat241
SOH-CM-2023
Shhhhh.....don't let these guys hear that, they flew nothing BUT P-47's:
The 56th Fighter Group was credited by the Air Force Historical Research Agency with the destruction of 665.5 aircraft in air-to-air combat, the 56th Fighter Group had more air-to-air kills than any other fighter group in the Eighth Air Force, was the top-scoring P-47 group during World War II, and recorded the second-highest number of air-to-air kills of any USAAF fighter group. The 56th also claimed 311 fighters destroyed on the ground.
Aerial victory claims
Capt. Walter V. Cook C, 62d Fighter Squadron, flying P-47C 41-6343 (LM-W Little Cookie), claimed the first aerial victory by a 56th pilot on 12 June 1943, over Blankenberghe, Belgium, downing an Fw 190. The group's final victory was an Me-262 of JG 7 shot down on 10 April 1945, by 2d Lt. Walter J. Sharbo, also of the 62d Fighter Squadron, in P-47M 44-21237 (LM-C Marion - North Dakota Kid), near Wittstock, Germany.
The 56th Fighter Group had 674½ claims credited by the Eighth Air Force for German aircraft destroyed in air-to-air combat. U.S. Air Force Historical Study No. 85 recognizes 665.5 aerial victories for the 56th. This total is the second highest among USAAF fighter groups in the ETO (behind the 354th Group with 701), the highest among all Eighth Air Force groups, and the highest among all P-47 groups of the USAAF. Eighth Air Force also credited the 357th Fighter Group with 311 German aircraft destroyed on the ground, making an overall total of 976.5, which is second among all Eighth Air Force fighter groups.
Of the air-to-air totals, 4 were Me-262 jets. 2d Lt. Walter Groce of the 63d FS shared a credit on 1 November 1944, with a P-51 pilot of the 352d FG for one of the first Me 262 jets shot down. P-47Ms accounted for three: Maj. George Bostwick and 2d Lt. Edwin M. Crosthwait, 63d FS on 25 March 1945, over Parchim; Capt. John Fahringer, 63rd FS, on 5 April; and Sharbo on 10 April. Two AR 234 jet bombers were claimed 14 March 1945, by the 62d FS, 1st Lt. Norman D. Gould shooting down one and the other shared by 1st Lt. Sandford N. Ball and 1st Lt. Warren S. Lear.
Among the various units of the 56th, the 61st Fighter Squadron had the most victories, 232 shot down by 68 pilots. The 62d Fighter Squadron was credited with 219.5 kills by 79 pilots, the 63d Fighter Squadron with 174.25 kills by 64 pilots, and group headquarters with 39.75 kills by 4 pilots.
Aces of the 56th Fighter Group
Counting only air-to-air victory claims registered while with the group (therefore discounting air-to-ground claims), the 56th had 39 pilots become aces, the second-most of any ETO fighter group (the 354th Fighter Group of the Ninth Air Force and the 357th Fighter Group, flying P-51s, had 42).
Lt. Col. Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski -- 28
Major Robert S. Johnson -- 27
Col. David C. Schilling -- 22.5
Capt. Fred J. Christensen Jr. -- 21.5
Major Walker M. "Bud" Mahurin -- 19.75
Major Gerald W. "Jerry" Johnson -- 16.5
Col. Hubert A. "Hub" Zemke -- 15.25
Capt. Joseph H. Powers Jr. -- 14.5
Capt. Felix D. "Willie" Williamson -- 13
Major Leroy A. Schreiber -- 12
Major James C. Stewart -- 11.5
Major Paul A. Conger -- 11.5
Capt. Michael J. Quirk -- 11
1st Lt. Robert J. "Shorty" Rankin -- 10
Sqd. Ldr. Boleslaw M. Gladych -- 10
1st Lt. Stanley D. "Fats" Morrill -- 9
Major Michael J. Jackson -- 8
Major George E. Bostwick -- 8
1st Lt. Glen D. Schiltz Jr. -- 8
Capt. Robert A. Lamb -- 7
Major Leslie C. Smith -- 7
1st Lt. Frank W. Klibbe -- 7
2nd Lt. Billy G. Edens -- 7
1st Lt. John H. "Lucky" Truluck, Jr. -- 7
Capt. Mark L. Moseley -- 6.5
Major James R. Carter -- 6
1st Lt. Robert J. Keen -- 6
Capt. Walter V. Cook -- 6
Capt. Cameron M. Hart -- 6
1st Lt. George F. Hall -- 6
1st Lt. Frank E. McCauley -- 5.5
Major Donovan F. "Dieppe" Smith -- 5.5
Lt. Norman D. Gould -- 5.5
Capt. Joseph H. Bennett -- 5.5
F.O. Evan O. McMinn -- 5
2nd Lt. Steven N. Gerick -- 5
2nd Lt. Joe W. Icard -- 5
Major Harold E. "Bunny" Comstock -- 5
Capt. Joseph L. Egan, Jr. -- 5
Capt. John W. Vogt, Jr. -- 5
SOURCE: USAF Historical Study 85. Nickname source Little Friends website and Freeman, 56th Fighter Group
¹Totals include one Me 262 jet shot down
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Anyone who knows something about "real world" A2A combat knows that you can't achieve a record like this in anything BUT a dogfighter! WRT historical performance of any aircraft, don't just trust the opinions of modern historians, trust the word and the records of the actual pilots.
tonybones2112
Charter Member
I agree that it was a distraction, I think he saw the opportunities of Rommel and his Russian forces meeting. Had he secured the Middle Eastern oilfields it would have been goodbye. For a little while. As I said, no one can speculate on how closely Russia would have been his budby, but his life's dream was taking Russia.
As a rule I don;t think Italy was really possessing the will to fight the West. My uncle was in North Africa and they used many Italian POWS to guard German POWs. With guns, and everything. On the other hand he met and fought some Italian and Vichy troops he said were as tough as any SS he ever fought.
There are many little things that caused our victory as soon as it was: The assassination of Heydrich, who was an Adolf Clone and would have continued the war at Hitler's death, becasue he was dying of syphilus induced Parkinson's. I know many historians have dismissed his VD, forensic evidence the Russians have produced don't lie. Germany alone could not have "conquered the world", they could not have held on to their pre-1941 holding as they were without Russian help. As I said, Russia was the key in WW2, they will be the key in WW3.
Bones The Poet
Cowboy1968
Charter Member
Well then I guess i just don't have a P-47 with a proper air file, because i can't get these things to fight with a damn in a fight. I use the Alphasim P-47D and the FDG P-47D