Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer
- Thread starter michaelvader
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michaelvader
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Bf 109 G12 flying from the backseat
hallo friends,
havent'you never wondering when you see warbards taxying by making serpentines?
on a a real warbir when txying and before on the take off run the tail comes up, the pilot sees nothing in front of him.
So of course the sight from the backseat of the Bf 109 G12 is worse.
But it is possible indeed.
1.at first you need to know how to change your view point (seat height) via your key board or via a switch on the panel
(on my release there will be one on the front and on the rear seats). then when taxying you look to see the left border line of the taxyway, when you see this line aplly gently right rudder till you will see apear the right border line of the taxyway and so on til you are on the run way, beeing well alined you will just see a bit from the runways border lines.
Now it is important to lock the tailwhell in centerposition!
set one notch of flaps and gently push the power of your engine to 1.0 ATA (not more!) be prepared to correct with the rudder
the direction of your run. As a lot of warbirds the plane wants to drift to the left. On the 109 it is very sensitive.
As soon you are airborne lift the landing gear and lift the flaps, than you can increase your power to 1.2 Ata
For landing it is a bit tricky in cause you need to make a steep approach.
reduce your speed to 280-300 km/h and lower the landing gear than step by step lower your flaps.
With the engine keep your spedd not to fall under 240km/h, over the fence reduce your engine power slowly and pull gently on the stick to make a three point landing.
Believe me it is faisable (and that with eratic controls).
As says the germans : exercises makes the master
Would be interesting to compare how to fly from the rear seat a Mustang or a spitfire (I do not know ones with that possibility for FS2004).
To train flying from the rear seat, try out a Buecker Jungmann or an Arado Ar 96
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
hallo friends,
havent'you never wondering when you see warbards taxying by making serpentines?
on a a real warbir when txying and before on the take off run the tail comes up, the pilot sees nothing in front of him.
So of course the sight from the backseat of the Bf 109 G12 is worse.
But it is possible indeed.
1.at first you need to know how to change your view point (seat height) via your key board or via a switch on the panel
(on my release there will be one on the front and on the rear seats). then when taxying you look to see the left border line of the taxyway, when you see this line aplly gently right rudder till you will see apear the right border line of the taxyway and so on til you are on the run way, beeing well alined you will just see a bit from the runways border lines.
Now it is important to lock the tailwhell in centerposition!
set one notch of flaps and gently push the power of your engine to 1.0 ATA (not more!) be prepared to correct with the rudder
the direction of your run. As a lot of warbirds the plane wants to drift to the left. On the 109 it is very sensitive.
As soon you are airborne lift the landing gear and lift the flaps, than you can increase your power to 1.2 Ata
For landing it is a bit tricky in cause you need to make a steep approach.
reduce your speed to 280-300 km/h and lower the landing gear than step by step lower your flaps.
With the engine keep your spedd not to fall under 240km/h, over the fence reduce your engine power slowly and pull gently on the stick to make a three point landing.
Believe me it is faisable (and that with eratic controls).
As says the germans : exercises makes the master
Would be interesting to compare how to fly from the rear seat a Mustang or a spitfire (I do not know ones with that possibility for FS2004).
To train flying from the rear seat, try out a Buecker Jungmann or an Arado Ar 96
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
michaelvader
Members +
BF109 G12 training airfields
Hallo Ian,
Dont' you have not somewhere some nice airfieds where Bf109 G12 has been employed?
For the moment I use Werneuchen but I' m quiet sure that 109 G12's has not been employed there.
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Hallo Ian,
Dont' you have not somewhere some nice airfieds where Bf109 G12 has been employed?
For the moment I use Werneuchen but I' m quiet sure that 109 G12's has not been employed there.
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Airfield which were probably visited by the Bf109 G12, could include are Achmer, Blankensee-Lubeck and Munich-Riem, which are all in the library. Ian also did WWII German airfields Rechlin, Rechlin Larz, Rheine-Bentlage and Westerland-Sylt, but I don't expect training flights were flown from these airfields.
Cheers,
Huub
Cheers,
Huub
K5083
SOH-CM-2024
Looking forward to trying this.
There is a Spitfire T.9 in the big Just Flight Spitfire package for FS2004, and it works in FSX also. It can be flown from the back and is quite fun, I do it occasionally.
I'm not aware of a TF-51 or any other dual WWII fighter conversion that can be flown from the back in the sim.
The great Eric Brown included his impressions of flying a G-12 from the rear in one of his books. Based on that, it would have been quite a bit hairier than either the TF-51 or Spit T.9. There is now one Buchon flying with a G-12 style second seat, I don't know if anyone attempts to fly it from there or just stuffs passengers in it, but it would provide some indication of the experience. Unlike the Spit, the rear seat in the 109 is not elevated over the front cockpit, so you are much more blind. Brown recommended using a large airfield and not attempting to use a runway or stick to any exact heading on takeoff or landing. Just aim for a generally unobstructed area, feel your way down by looking out the side, and expect everyone to get out of your way.
August
There is a Spitfire T.9 in the big Just Flight Spitfire package for FS2004, and it works in FSX also. It can be flown from the back and is quite fun, I do it occasionally.
I'm not aware of a TF-51 or any other dual WWII fighter conversion that can be flown from the back in the sim.
The great Eric Brown included his impressions of flying a G-12 from the rear in one of his books. Based on that, it would have been quite a bit hairier than either the TF-51 or Spit T.9. There is now one Buchon flying with a G-12 style second seat, I don't know if anyone attempts to fly it from there or just stuffs passengers in it, but it would provide some indication of the experience. Unlike the Spit, the rear seat in the 109 is not elevated over the front cockpit, so you are much more blind. Brown recommended using a large airfield and not attempting to use a runway or stick to any exact heading on takeoff or landing. Just aim for a generally unobstructed area, feel your way down by looking out the side, and expect everyone to get out of your way.
August
michaelvader
Members +
Bf 109 G-12
Oh the great Eric Brown, wasn't he not allowed to be Sir Eric Brown.
On my opinian the best allied pilot who did fly and understand german aircraft.
And his opinions did be far away from the reality of things.
He had also a nice taste of humor. Did he not say "kick the tires, fire the engine and the last in the air is a sissy?
I had his book about german aircrafts in german but sadly lost it.
I' ve found a nice and tricky airfield to land the G12 - Munich Oberschleissheim
This airfield was also used as training airfield but only for night fighters I believe.
Must have a look on it
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Oh the great Eric Brown, wasn't he not allowed to be Sir Eric Brown.
On my opinian the best allied pilot who did fly and understand german aircraft.
And his opinions did be far away from the reality of things.
He had also a nice taste of humor. Did he not say "kick the tires, fire the engine and the last in the air is a sissy?
I had his book about german aircrafts in german but sadly lost it.
I' ve found a nice and tricky airfield to land the G12 - Munich Oberschleissheim
This airfield was also used as training airfield but only for night fighters I believe.
Must have a look on it
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
michaelvader
Members +
Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12
Good morning friends,
my version of the 109 G-12 comes to be finish in the war bird version.
Now I will attack the cockpit in a "today" version. I also have yet repainted my bird to the
today paint.
Now a nice repaint for the warbird - Shessi, Huub, not interested?
Because hmmmm to be true, you make them quiet better than I do
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Good morning friends,
my version of the 109 G-12 comes to be finish in the war bird version.
Now I will attack the cockpit in a "today" version. I also have yet repainted my bird to the
today paint.
Now a nice repaint for the warbird - Shessi, Huub, not interested?
Because hmmmm to be true, you make them quiet better than I do
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
michaelvader
Members +
Bf 109 G-12 Black 27
good morning Stoney,
Black 27?
I' m estonished as I only know Yellow 27.
I found photos of this bird from wartime. But there exists a Yellow 27 flying to day (sadly with an RR engine now)
She was rebuild from a spanish 109 by MeierMotors in Bremgarten. Than flown by the team of Hangar 10 in Usedom on the baltic coast.
For maintenance reasons they changed the engine to a RR engine.
After the death of the company founder the bird was sold to the Messerschmitt Stiftung at Manching
I did this repaint (with of course the DB engine) as she can be seen today.
There is still some work to do on her.
But I hope to be able to release my version of the G-12 soon.
There will be two versions - war time with a wartime cockpit and the yellow 27 with a "today" cockpit
So if you want a "Black 27", please send me photos or pics than I will see if I can do it.
But really my competances in repainting are limited.
Shessi or Huub ar a lot more competant than I ever will be.
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
good morning Stoney,
Black 27?
I' m estonished as I only know Yellow 27.
I found photos of this bird from wartime. But there exists a Yellow 27 flying to day (sadly with an RR engine now)
She was rebuild from a spanish 109 by MeierMotors in Bremgarten. Than flown by the team of Hangar 10 in Usedom on the baltic coast.
For maintenance reasons they changed the engine to a RR engine.
After the death of the company founder the bird was sold to the Messerschmitt Stiftung at Manching
I did this repaint (with of course the DB engine) as she can be seen today.
There is still some work to do on her.
But I hope to be able to release my version of the G-12 soon.
There will be two versions - war time with a wartime cockpit and the yellow 27 with a "today" cockpit
So if you want a "Black 27", please send me photos or pics than I will see if I can do it.
But really my competances in repainting are limited.
Shessi or Huub ar a lot more competant than I ever will be.
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Bookman1960
SOH-CM-2023
Found a few more schemes.
Bookman1960
SOH-CM-2023
And lastly, it seems that two trainers were delivered to Italy.
Bookman1960
SOH-CM-2023
Info on the Italian planes:
A few Bf-109G-12s were used by the Pro-German (ANR) Aeronautica Nazionale Reppubblicana to covert pilots from Macchi C.205 and Fiat G.55 fighters, when the Italians started to use the Bf-109-Gs in 1944. One unit was the 3 Squadriglia 2 Gruppo Caccia based at Aviano, Italy in 1944. Veteran pilots had experience flying the Bf 109G models.
I found this recollection from the amazing Captain Eric Brown:
"One of my rashest ventures was to fly the Bf-109G-12 tandam two-seater from the rear cockpit, with no one in the forward cockpit. I was interested to acertain what sort of view the instructor had for landing. The answer was none! I had to make three very frightening attempts beforeregaining terra firma. The periscope sight in the rear cockpit was of no use whatsoever in the vital final stage of flare, touch-down and landing run. One can only assume that Luftwaffe instructors finding themselves in a Bf-109G-12 acquired a fatalistic acceptance of an inevitable reliance on their pupils for the finale of each training flight. I would certainly not recommend the ultimate solution that I adopted, of a split-S turning dive at the runway, and then a burst of power to avoid cratering the tarmac, and making tail-up contact on the mainwheels. After the tail dropped, it was anybody's guess as to the direction in which the aircraft was heading. I certainly had not the vaguest idea."
--Captain Eric M. Brown, Wings of the Luftwaffe. Page 157
A few Bf-109G-12s were used by the Pro-German (ANR) Aeronautica Nazionale Reppubblicana to covert pilots from Macchi C.205 and Fiat G.55 fighters, when the Italians started to use the Bf-109-Gs in 1944. One unit was the 3 Squadriglia 2 Gruppo Caccia based at Aviano, Italy in 1944. Veteran pilots had experience flying the Bf 109G models.
I found this recollection from the amazing Captain Eric Brown:
"One of my rashest ventures was to fly the Bf-109G-12 tandam two-seater from the rear cockpit, with no one in the forward cockpit. I was interested to acertain what sort of view the instructor had for landing. The answer was none! I had to make three very frightening attempts beforeregaining terra firma. The periscope sight in the rear cockpit was of no use whatsoever in the vital final stage of flare, touch-down and landing run. One can only assume that Luftwaffe instructors finding themselves in a Bf-109G-12 acquired a fatalistic acceptance of an inevitable reliance on their pupils for the finale of each training flight. I would certainly not recommend the ultimate solution that I adopted, of a split-S turning dive at the runway, and then a burst of power to avoid cratering the tarmac, and making tail-up contact on the mainwheels. After the tail dropped, it was anybody's guess as to the direction in which the aircraft was heading. I certainly had not the vaguest idea."
--Captain Eric M. Brown, Wings of the Luftwaffe. Page 157
michaelvader
Members +
Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer differences
Hallo Robin,
The release Messerschmitt Bf 109GTrainer is the first released by Allen in colaboration with Cpt Kurt.
On my demand if a two seat version of the Bf 109G exists Allen very quickly did his one. His reponse to my demand was faster than I could believe.
Than I began to work on this basis to do a front and rear panel. And I had a little look on the flight behaviour of the bird.
Later when studying all my docs I saw that in fact the history of the real Bf 109 G -12 is a bit complex. On the other side I know that an example has been rebuild to fly in present time. But the use is a bit different.
I will not comment Allen's release as he was so kind to make one on my simple demand.
I will just point out the differnces of my publications.
The first is in its wartime configuration with the instructor sitting on the backseat. so as same as the release from Allen the views are done to see from the backseat. Also it is armed and for those who like it, she can fire her guns when airborne and you hit the brakes key..The rear cockpit is very complete, the instructor have all the controls of the plane in his cockpit.
The second one shows the rebuild of an Bf 109 G-12 as it has been done in the year 2016.
The front cockpit is equiped with some modern gauges as they are needed due to flight reglemantations of today.
The rear cockpit is quiet simplier than my wartime version but still allows to fly the plane frome the rear. But the views
are now centered on the front cockpit as the plane towardays is more flown from the front cockpit. And the rear will certainly be occupied by passengers, the pilot in command will be in the front cockpit.
I also removed the gun functions and changed the flight dynamics to be more conform to the actual plane.
Of course also I did the painting of "yellow 27" with the german flag and its actual registration under the horizontal stab
as the plane have them..
If one day some one will do a version with the RR Merline engine, I will be prepared to change the cockpit again to fit english engine gauges.
At last I believe the best person to comment the three different version will be Allen as he did the first one and without his work I could not do mine ones
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Kenavo from Brittany
Hallo Robin,
The release Messerschmitt Bf 109GTrainer is the first released by Allen in colaboration with Cpt Kurt.
On my demand if a two seat version of the Bf 109G exists Allen very quickly did his one. His reponse to my demand was faster than I could believe.
Than I began to work on this basis to do a front and rear panel. And I had a little look on the flight behaviour of the bird.
Later when studying all my docs I saw that in fact the history of the real Bf 109 G -12 is a bit complex. On the other side I know that an example has been rebuild to fly in present time. But the use is a bit different.
I will not comment Allen's release as he was so kind to make one on my simple demand.
I will just point out the differnces of my publications.
The first is in its wartime configuration with the instructor sitting on the backseat. so as same as the release from Allen the views are done to see from the backseat. Also it is armed and for those who like it, she can fire her guns when airborne and you hit the brakes key..The rear cockpit is very complete, the instructor have all the controls of the plane in his cockpit.
The second one shows the rebuild of an Bf 109 G-12 as it has been done in the year 2016.
The front cockpit is equiped with some modern gauges as they are needed due to flight reglemantations of today.
The rear cockpit is quiet simplier than my wartime version but still allows to fly the plane frome the rear. But the views
are now centered on the front cockpit as the plane towardays is more flown from the front cockpit. And the rear will certainly be occupied by passengers, the pilot in command will be in the front cockpit.
I also removed the gun functions and changed the flight dynamics to be more conform to the actual plane.
Of course also I did the painting of "yellow 27" with the german flag and its actual registration under the horizontal stab
as the plane have them..
If one day some one will do a version with the RR Merline engine, I will be prepared to change the cockpit again to fit english engine gauges.
At last I believe the best person to comment the three different version will be Allen as he did the first one and without his work I could not do mine ones
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Kenavo from Brittany
michaelvader
Members +
Bf 109 G-12 cockpits
Here the war time cockpits
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Here the war time cockpits
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
michaelvader
Members +
Bf 109 G-12 today cockpits
Here the the cockpits from the 109 G-12 D-FMGZ from 2016
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader
Here the the cockpits from the 109 G-12 D-FMGZ from 2016
Best regards
Yours
Michael Vader