Messerschmitts! nah they're not they're 'einkels...

[Alan_A]

Absolutely. We are including the RAF captured livery as part of the pack. It is interesting that the Air Ministry published British pilots notes for the type (together with others like the BF109) to assist RAF pilots flying these machines. I have a couple of them.

Whether it is true or not, I also understand that these were produced for aircrew so that in the event of being downed and "borrowing" an HE111 that was lying around, they could fly it home...lovely idea but I somehow doubt its authenticity.

Excellent news - you can count me in as an RAF evaluation pilot, then.

I once considered trying my hand at painting some late-war and postwar evaluation aircraft in US hands - the ones with the "FE" (Foreign Equipment) numbers stenciled on the fuselage. But that calls for painting skills way beyond what I've got. Maybe someday.

I once saw a hand-drawn allied pilot's guide to the FW-190 - but I think that was done by a prisoner of war who was hopeful of catching a ride. Have never seen a formal handbook - but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some department or other was busy grinding them out.

Thanks for all of that - looking forward to release.

 

[Bjoern]

Bazz, see this:

https://www.game.de/en/blog/2018/08...s-of-unconstitutional-organisations-in-games/

Note this:

When games that depict symbols of unconstitutional organisations are submitted to the USK for an age rating, the USK committees can now assess them on a case-by-case basis to decide whether the ‘social adequacy clause’ (Sozialadäquanzklausel, as laid out in section 86, subsection (3) of the German Criminal Code) applies. In this context, ‘social adequacy’ means that symbols of unconstitutional organisations can be used in games in individual cases, as long as those symbols serve an artistic or scientific purpose, or depict current or historical events.

The new regulation is not a free ticket. It might avoid some of the more silly ways around dealing with "that period of time", as in the new Wolfenstein games, but it still doesn't mean that you can slap historical markings on everything without a second thought - even as an option.

 

[warchild]

Artistic or scientific: Currrent or historic.. That sounds pretty broad and open too me. I m,ean, what is art?? It's been long established that Milt Caniff is an artist, and "Peanuts" is a work of art, along with Terry and the Pirates, and a ton of other comic strips. Meanwhile the designer of the Heinz Tomato soup lable takes home a paycheck and is foprgotten while Andy Warhol rakes in Millions for his bizaar and psychodelic depiction of it.. What is art??? These aircraft are obviously works of art. created by exceptional artists. Depictions of events current or historical. It could be argued that this is a game which is not dedicated to the representation of a specific period in time not the groups involved; being open ended and sandboxed as it is, but beyond that argument, the argument holds no water.

I think I need to shut upo here though. Bazaar should be fine, and it would be a gritty, but welcome change to see the past represented properly. g

 

[Bjoern]

Artistic or scientific: Currrent or historic.. That sounds pretty broad and open too me. I m,ean, what is art?? It's been long established that Milt Caniff is an artist, and "Peanuts" is a work of art, along with Terry and the Pirates, and a ton of other comic strips. Meanwhile the designer of the Heinz Tomato soup lable takes home a paycheck and is foprgotten while Andy Warhol rakes in Millions for his bizaar and psychodelic depiction of it.. What is art??? These aircraft are obviously works of art. created by exceptional artists. Depictions of events current or historical. It could be argued that this is a game which is not dedicated to the representation of a specific period in time not the groups involved; being open ended and sandboxed as it is, but beyond that argument, the argument holds no water.

I think I need to shut upo here though. Bazaar should be fine, and it would be a gritty, but welcome change to see the past represented properly. g

The definition of "art" is not the heart of the matter, but the intention with which the artist produced it and how the product is perceived by a broad audience.

Consider IL-2. It's a historically fairly accurate depiction of aerial warfare on the Eastern Front and therefor eligible for historically accurate markings. But on the other hand, you get to fly for the Axis, which requires consideration whether fully marked aircraft depict a glorification of some kind or not. Therefor, it is most likely not getting a free waiver.
Same as Hearts Of Iron. You have a shot at germanizing the world, so doing it under historical banners is a bit problematic.

On the other hand, there's games like Wolfenstein or The Saboteur, which are detached from any historical events and are pretty one-sided, explicit affairs and therefor may be eligible for symbols and markings. Games from the Battlefield series are somewhere in between and might get waved through, provided they are not striving for too much realism (e.g. BF1942).

So to be on the safe side in the context of third party content for games and sims published in Germany, historical markings should be kept as an option.

 

[dvj]

The proper resting position for one of these devils......

 

[bazzar]

Not a fan then?

 

[wombat666]

The definition of "art" is not the heart of the matter, but the intention with which the artist produced it and how the product is perceived by a broad audience.

Consider IL-2. It's a historically fairly accurate depiction of aerial warfare on the Eastern Front and therefor eligible for historically accurate markings. But on the other hand, you get to fly for the Axis, which requires consideration whether fully marked aircraft depict a glorification of some kind or not. Therefor, it is most likely not getting a free waiver.
Same as Hearts Of Iron. You have a shot at germanizing the world, so doing it under historical banners is a bit problematic.

On the other hand, there's games like Wolfenstein or The Saboteur, which are detached from any historical events and are pretty one-sided, explicit affairs and therefor may be eligible for symbols and markings. Games from the Battlefield series are somewhere in between and might get waved through, provided they are not striving for too much realism (e.g. BF1942).

So to be on the safe side in the context of third party content for games and sims published in Germany, historical markings should be kept as an option.

Sailing close to the political line there Bjorn.

However, options are always good to have.
I understand where you are coming from FWIW, and in my personal opinion the bulk of the users of the 'Wargames' you mention are not well acquainted with 'History'.

 

[bazzar]

What I do find curious is the amount of discussion on the tail insignia in relation to the subject. I don't believe I see as much when the subject is a BF109 or ME110. When we produced our last BF109E for Just Flight, we created an alternative for that and we have never heard anything about the insignia since it was launched.

We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution.

 

[pilto von pilto]

What I do find curious is the amount of discussion on the tail insignia in relation to the subject. I don't believe I see as much when the subject is a BF109 or ME110. When we produced our last BF109E for Just Flight, we created an alternative for that and we have never heard anything about the insignia since it was launched.

We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution.

And before anyone asks, we'll be geo-blocking the page so if you are using a german IP then you cant access the page. Outside of using a VPN/proxy/tor or asking someone else to download the files, that should be enough. I mean at some point the person who is circumventing the blocks in place and who is downloading the material actually has to be responsible. Or am I being naive?

 

[huub vink]

And before anyone asks, we'll be geo-blocking the page so if you are using a german IP then you cant access the page. Outside of using a VPN/proxy/tor or asking someone else to download the files, that should be enough. I mean at some point the person who is circumventing the blocks in place and who is downloading the material actually has to be responsible. Or am I being naive?

In general German laws are only applicable for the people who are on German territory and German citizens. When you want to sell on the German market your product should be in conformity with the German regulations. From the above I understand that you will not make the Heinkel available for the German market. Due to which it doesn't need to comply with German regulations on this topic. (In other words you are not naive )

A German person who buys the product at for instance JustFlight, which is registered in the UK, is importing the product into Germany. Often this is not regulated as this is considered only for "private use". There are of course many product from which importing these product is specially forbidden, like f.i. chemicals, which can easily have an unintended effect on other people. But I don't think this is the case with a virtual aircraft. This implements that the owner of the product is not allowed to display the Heinkel at public events.

As an example in the Netherlands I'm free to buy a tractor in China which doesn't comply with the European directives. As it doesn't comply with the European directives I'm not allowed to sell it as compiance a requirement defined in Dutch law. I'm also not allowed to have employees working with it, as this is a requirement from the Dutch labour act. I'm most likely not even allowed to drive it at public roads as it doesn't meet the requirements for Dutch traffic.

This is at least how it works for technical products. I assume this applicable in a similar way for virtual product like the Heinkel.

I'm not a lawyer, but as safety engineer, compliance a subject which is frequently on my plate.........

Cheers,
Huub

(And like Bazz, I'm surprised to see that "historical marking" are suddenly such a topic here.)

 

[Alan_A]

(And like Bazz, I'm surprised to see that "historical marking" are suddenly such a topic here.)

I'd venture to suggest that the "historical" symbol in question is more openly on display now in some quarters and at some events than it has been in the recent past, and for that reason it may be generating more interest and attention. Not trying (or wanting) to provoke a political discussion, just offering a theory about why the topic is hotter than it has been.

 

[huub vink]

Alan,

Quite recent a thread was started about the Hispano Aviacion Ha 112 Buchon and this tread started with several images which all contained, what we call historical correct markings. Not a single word was spend on them. Over the years I have release plenty of German repaints, in nearly all cases containing historical correct markings. Again no word spend on them. And suddenly in this thread it has become a topic and for me its completely unclear why.

When I still made plastic model kits the swastikas were a huge topic in Germany, but I had the feeling this had slowly faded away.
So that's why I'm a bit surprised. This has absolutely nothing to do with politics or the German choices.

But the original topic was the new AH Heinkel He.111, perhaps we should stick to this subject.

Cheers,
Huub

 

[Alan_A]

But the original topic was the new AH Heinkel He.111, perhaps we should stick to this subject.

Agreed. As for the rest - happy to discuss via PM if you'd like (or not - your call). But not here.

 

[Bjoern]

Sailing close to the political line there Bjorn.

Beause that's what it is, at least within the confines of this country.

I just wanted to offer some (subjective) clarification on the subject since YoYo brought up the recent change in practice. For an official position, the publisher, JF, would have to inquire at the respective authority. But I figure that...

We will produce the model with an alternative and have the genuine article available for download at owners'discretion. That seems to me t be the simplest solution.

...this is the simplest solution for everybody involved, no matter what change in practices have occurred or will be occurring.



No further remarks, your honor.

A German person who buys the product at for instance JustFlight, which is registered in the UK, is importing the product into Germany. Often this is not regulated as this is considered only for "private use".

I think this practice was cracked down upon some years ago. Importing uncensored games from Austria, Switzerland or the UK used to be fairly popular ten plus years ago, until the authorities got wind of that loophole and closed it. Or until changes in digital distribution made it nearly impossible to install or use such software. Maybe both.

 

[bazzar]

As a final clarification on this point, we will be developing this product with an alternative symbol. German customers will receive this (as will everybody else) when they buy. If a customer requires the authentic symbol, they can download the relative texture. This download page will be locked for German customers.

Thanks.

 

[YoYo]

2 new shots.

Pity that no TacPack :