Milviz Phantom F-4E (ADV) - hard to fly....

I have a local EAA member who flew the F-4C in Vietnam, and shot down a MiG-21. Listening to his stories about flying the Phantom match the info posted here by the people who have learned to fly her. He was present for the maiden flight of the F-4 in my avatar picture, which is done in the scheme of the aircraft he flew. By the way, that R/C aircraft is just as trim sensitive as the real one! I have not yet learned to fly the MilVis ADV F-4 yet, either, but that is due to R/L time constraints. I will learn it, eventually. :sentimental:
 
All fine and dandy but when the aircraft CTDs the sim every single time mere minutes into a session before engine start is even complete, notwithstanding all the MVAMS settings were gone over, a point that at least in my case MV never addressed, then platitudes around "it was hard to fly in real life" are pretty empty.
 
DL, can understand those annoying things a lot!
Same to me with the JF Tornado, just when I install any upgrades regarding any shaders, the Tonka will show up almost completely transparent :banghead: and I have to shut down the P3D, delete any shaders, restart etc etc.
Not good solution and an issue that has to be more discussed over there in the forums....
My opinion:
The deeper the system of a high technique aircraft addon, the higher the chance to get issues. That's caused by a highly needed sensible balance between each users system and the addon.
Is there any chance to get a solution for your strong problem over there at MV forums?
 
I have followed each thread about the MV ADV Phantom and occasionally tried to assist people, especially with trim settings. I had the pleasure of testing this beast and at first I was also frustrated but managed to get the hang of it eventually.

In my opinion, study level sims like this one may not be for everyone but managing to make them work, both in terms of systems use and flying brings a huge satisfaction in the end. I get the same from DCS birds that are of similar of larger level of complexity. Of course there are the times where one just needs to fly around and enjoy the scenery. There are many great planes to do that. Personally I am glad for this variety as I do have varying needs from simming that depend on my mood at the time and I can chose from the wide selection of options, knowing what each of them offer.

Manfred, I am glad that you are getting the hang of the Phantom. A good joystick (even better a HOTAS) is really important to have.
 
How much down trim do you guys apply for takeoff ?
I made another try yesterday, with the F-4J. I added 2 units of down trim before trying to takeoff.
Upon rotation, nose was a bit heavy, as I expected. This was a good thing.
However, as soon as I reached a few feet above the runway (just out of the ground effect, I guess), the nose became very light again and went quickly up, forcing to add yet more nose-down trim.
Takeoff attempt was done in the following configuration:
- central fuel tank
- 4 sparrows
- 4 sidewinders
- Fuel set to 3/4 with the loadout manager 2D popup
- Full afterburners
- half flaps
- two units nose-down trim (two cranks on the correpsonding gauge on the left of the panel).
 
I add 3 units before the TO run. Then I am hot on the trim button and quickly trim down more after it unsticks to try and arrest the nose up.
 
A very gentle push on the stick together with the trimming also helps but not much to avoid "pilot induced oscillations". My closest real life experience is trimming down the Super Cub upon flap deployment but the speeds are waaaaay different!!!:adoration:
 
Can confirm - some heavy sets of finger tipping right after take off, then some minor corrections without touching the stick until she's stable. That lasts until touch down....
 
Manschy said:
DL, can understand those annoying things a lot!
Same to me with the JF Tornado, just when I install any upgrades regarding any shaders, the Tonka will show up almost completely transparent :banghead: and I have to shut down the P3D, delete any shaders, restart etc etc.
Not good solution and an issue that has to be more discussed over there in the forums....
My opinion:
The deeper the system of a high technique aircraft addon, the higher the chance to get issues. That's caused by a highly needed sensible balance between each users system and the addon.
Is there any chance to get a solution for your strong problem over there at MV forums?
Click to expand...

Thanks Manfred,

The followup on the forums never got anywhere.

Funny, when I transitioned from FSX to P3D4.5, I determined to have as few "extra" programs as possible - so I installed no shaders, none of my REX stuff, plus I've never bought into Orbx products - so my core install was pretty "vanilla" intentionally to create as few potential conflicts as possible. Apart of course, from AIC2 - I even held off reinstalling the SWS products as knew those prone to introducing issues.

I found I was able to attain a measure of control with both correct calibration, correct trim, and of course, use of the SAS. But I'd randomly CTD at latest 5-6 min into the sim, often times sooner.

The bottom line is the FSX version worked very well, but the P3D version didn't. Last night, for kicks and giggles, I went to the their site and downloaded the latest version of the F-4E - which I had bought beforehand. Antivirus off, install as admin ... etc. It CTD'ed within minutes too, whereas in FSX I could fly for hours.

Other study sims I've bought (SWS, SSW, MV F-86, MV T-38) products have eventually proven their worth over the initial obstacles. But the P3DV4 MV F-4s just have never delivered the juice, notwithstanding literally dozens of hours spent squeezing. Like's too short for that kind of aggravation.

For those for whom the planets aligned, I raise my glass in congratulations.
 
Motormouse said:
As a phormer Phantom Phixer this is correct



The F-4 did not have a dedicated parking brake, you would set the emergency brake lever, then hold it in position by looping one of seat belts around it.

Ttfn

Pete
Click to expand...

I dunno, sounds like a dedicated parking brake to me :)
 
Manschy said:
Can confirm - some heavy sets of finger tipping right after take off, then some minor corrections without touching the stick until she's stable. That lasts until touch down....
Click to expand...

I realize you said you don't necessarily want to spend hours of study to learn to fly the plane. But, consider, it could be fun. To that end, there's a ton of different flight manuals and information here at this site, including flight manuals and books on the F-4 in all its versions.

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/

Probably most interesting to you would be the aircraft SAC's (Standard Aircraft Characteristics)

Here's one for the F-4J http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2016/11/f-4j-phantom-ii-standard-aircraft.html

and for the F-4B http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2016/11/f-4b-phantom-ii-standard-aircraft.html

I didn't see a SAC for the F-4E, but the guy who runs the site is totally open to finding the documents you might ask for. He was an Engineer at Douglas Aircraft, and the F-4 is a particular favorite of his.

hint: Many of the document links are stored at postimg.org, which apparently change their address, modify the url to postimage.org and the link will work.

Oh, and it's best to try to download documents after the first of the month as the download limits get reset every month at some of the sites he stores documents at. It's not that you can't download documents, but, especially at one particular site, after a certain limit, you only get one download an hour. Before that, it just goes straight to download.
 
FlyingsCool said:
I realize you said you don't necessarily want to spend hours of study to learn to fly the plane. But, consider, it could be fun. To that end, there's a ton of different flight manuals and information here at this site, including flight manuals and books on the F-4 in all its versions.
Click to expand...

Wowzer, thanks for the point out. Great website with loads of interesting docs.
 
I need to preface my remarks by saying I am NOT, nor have I ever been, one to read manuals carefully and be patient when attempting to fly a complex model such as the Milviz ADV F-4. I have had this model for years, and it has spent 99% of the time in its virtual hangar.

But! I decided to follow the advice/directions mentioned in previous posts, just to see what might happen. I actually flew around for almost a half hour, and was able to control it! The response to my joystick, a Logitech G940, in connection with a Saitek X52 and Rudder Pedals, is quite sensitive. But I think I can learn to fly this baby! YES! All is not lost! Navy Chief
 
Thanks for bumping that topic, I realize I forgot to reply to Dimus after he provided me the advice about setting three units of nose-down trim for takeoff.
That did the trick quite nicely indeed, and I had for the first time a smooth takeoff with an aircraft that was not desperatly attempting to perform a Cobra each and every second :
The plane did reply to input quite nicely.
So thank you Dimus for the advice :)

Navy Chief, I can confirm the Milviz Phantom is also very, VERY sensitive to control inputs on my side. It's just a matter of getting used to it. Once you know it, suddenly the plane becomes much easier to handle.
And I really like to start it cold&dark. Even in VR it's easy enough, the needed controls are all accessible. The only thing is the nose-wheel-steering, I have to push my VR helmet a bit up to see my keyboard to perform the key combo I assigned to that command, but that's ok :D
 
Glad it helped Daube.

Chief, I'm happy to see you're making progress and enjoying this beast of a plane.

There are two major issues with flight simulation on a PC that get extrapolated with complex models like this one. The first is the lack of "seat of the pants" response feeling, with the only feedback being the visual (and some audible) feedback. The second one is the geometry and arrangement of the controllers. Even HOTAS systems, when placed on a desktop will be much different than the stick and throttle of an F-4. Response curves that correct the sensitivity, like the ones used in DCS or FSUIPC often help alleviate this.

In planes that I can compare with real life (Cessnas and Pipers) I find easier to control in real life than e.g. the A2A accusimmed models in the sim, simply because I can "feel" the real one better.
 
Navy Chief said:
But! I decided to follow the advice/directions mentioned in previous posts, just to see what might happen. I actually flew around for almost a half hour, and was able to control it! The response to my joystick, a Logitech G940, in connection with a Saitek X52 and Rudder Pedals, is quite sensitive. But I think I can learn to fly this baby! YES! All is not lost! Navy Chief
Click to expand...

Hey Chief

If you don't mind taking a suggestion from this former Royal Air Force 'Sarge'...

When you're setting things up, you're not putting fuel in #7 fuselage tank are you? That would put the C of G way out of whack.

IIRC (and I'm going back 30 years here) , #7 tank was only ever used for in-flight trim for high speed flight (mach 1 and above) to keep C of G in limits and except for one or two load out configs, NEVER filled on ground before flight.

Ttfn

Pete
 
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