Model Design

[OleBoy]

This topic is for those with skills to design quality models. If needed, and to narrow things down, a building to be specific.
I want a hanger modeled to my specifications. A hanger I can place where I want it to be, anywhere in FSX.
I want the mesh so I can texture it to my likings, along with the source when it is finished. I may want updates done to the hanger in the future.

I don't necessarily want to pay someone else to do this. I will to get one modeled that I draw up.
Something else to consider, I am proficient at doing repaints. I can offer my services in exchange for yours.


Respond here or by private message.
**Please do not respond unless you can commit to the request.

This is my design.

 

[Lionheart]

Hey OleBoy,

Are you saying you would just like help on how to get that thing in FS?

Nice looking private hanger. A little bit of Alpine design.

 

[OleBoy]

Happy Thanksgiving, Bill.

I'll share a bit of the saga with a rather lengthy answer.

The images above are a couple shots I designed and modeled while messing around. That program Google Sketch-up, what a neat program. The more I messed with it, the more intrigued and elaborate I went in the designing stages. Something I attempted to do when I had the time. One shot there of it is in FSX, though it would never get finished the way I wanted it to be. Let's just say it had issues an eye could not see unless it was loaded in the modeling program. I planned having the hanger doors animated and operable by tuning the radio. At the time that was a feature not attainable within the program. I turned off the lights and left my project behind. I saved the model files just in case. Today I was browsing my hard drive for textures. My project files, there they were. They brought a very gratifying smile to my face when I saw them again.

In reality (no pun intended) I need to have someone create a model for me from scratch.

 

[OleBoy]

After my last post I decided to re-install Sketchup so I could load the model and pull dimensions from the design. As I was going around the model I was finding areas I had forgotten to texture. One thing led to another, next I found I was exporting, and importing into MCX. The DAE imported fine. Draw calls minimized as intended, and the MTE also worked as it should. After that I ran into a show stopper. The DAE will not export due to complexity. Oh, it exports. @ zero bytes. Is there a work around for exporting detailed models?

Dimus, if you read this (or anyone knowledgeable with Sketchup), is there a solution?

As seen in MCX.

 

[Lionheart]

Francois makes FS Scenery all the time with this program.

Have you gone into FSDeveloper.com to ask questions on how to export this into FS? You might be surprise at how easy it is. I think MCX (ModelConverterX) by Arno will conver this directly to MDL format, and then you run it through the BGLC-9 compiler with the location XML to create a proper BGL file.

You are almost there!

Bill

 

[OleBoy]

Francois makes FS Scenery all the time with this program.

Have you gone into FSDeveloper.com to ask questions on how to export this into FS? You might be surprise at how easy it is. I think MCX (ModelConverterX) by Arno will conver this directly to MDL format, and then you run it through the BGLC-9 compiler with the location XML to create a proper BGL file.

You are almost there!

Bill

Francois, I'll be darn. I do recall speaking with him about scenery and whatnot a while back. I did not even think of him being relative about GS. Maybe he will see this topic at some point.

Concerning FSdeveloper, I found after reading a few posts that MCX does in-fact have an issue exporting high detail models. He was going to look into it. I was going to wait to hear more.

 

[Grafmann]

Texture Vertex Limit

OleBoy,

There is a limitation in the MCX exporter. It gives an error message when the number of texture vertices exceeds 65,535, then goes right ahead & writes a .mdl file with 0 bytes as you have described above. Check near the bottom of the Event Log for error messages when you export. Perhaps this is causing your problem.

I'm using the stable release of MCX (1.3.0). The latest development release may be able to handle more complex models, I don't know.

In any case Arno, the creator of MCX, & moderator at FSDeveloper.com is the expert, I'm just an amateur.

Goodluck,
Grafmann

 

[OleBoy]

OleBoy,

There is a limitation in the MCX exporter. It gives an error message when the number of texture vertices exceeds 65,535, then goes right ahead & writes a .mdl file with 0 bytes as you have described above. Check near the bottom of the Event Log for error messages when you export. Perhaps this is causing your problem.

I'm using the stable release of MCX (1.3.0). The latest development release may be able to handle more complex models, I don't know.

In any case Arno, the creator of MCX, & moderator at FSDeveloper.com is the expert, I'm just an amateur.

Goodluck,
Grafmann

My model is far too complex for flight simulator. It has a vertice count of nearly 400,000. It was fun designing it. Back to the modeling board!

 

[Dimus]

I haven't run into this issue ever. I guess you have to simplify it. Try using textures instead of polys for the details.

In normal circumstances I would have offered my services to design your hangar as I like your idea, but these days are extremely busy at work and will be so for at least the next 3-4 months. PM me your email and I can send you some examples of objects that might be of help as reference.

 

[roger-wilco-66]

OleBoy,

There is a limitation in the MCX exporter. It gives an error message when the number of texture vertices exceeds 65,535, then goes right ahead & writes a .mdl file with 0 bytes as you have described above. Check near the bottom of the Event Log for error messages when you export. Perhaps this is causing your problem.

I'm using the stable release of MCX (1.3.0). The latest development release may be able to handle more complex models, I don't know.

In any case Arno, the creator of MCX, & moderator at FSDeveloper.com is the expert, I'm just an amateur.

Goodluck,
Grafmann

That's 65k vertices _per_ single drawcall (vertex stream / vertex buffer), not for the overall model. This is a limit that comes from FSX and the xtomdl compiler. There's nothing MCX can change here.

But there are a few tricks. Oleboy, reducing drawcalls batches the texture vertices together and therefore you can exceed that limit, expecially when MCX has to batch solid colors together and bake them into a texture. If you open the original (not drawcall optimized) file in MCX, have a look at the model properties, there's a table that tells you how many vertices are assigned to each drawcall. If you already exceed the limit here, you'll have to go back to the 3d design and make some fundamental changes here.
One of the problems that occur in that matter come from assigning solid colors (no textures) to 3d models. This should be avoided from the beginning for various reasons and can cause these problems when you bake the colors to a texture in the MCX drawcall optimizer as mentioned above. So if your model has solid colors, replace them with textures in SU. In GMAX / 3DS I'd optimize the model by welding vertices to reduce their number and so on but I don't know SU enough to give any tips here.

Edit: when you simplify the model, have a look at all cylindrical objects. These can have relativly high vertex numbers when they have too many horizontal and vertical segments, and that number explodes when texturing occurs. The same goes for cube objects. Check how many segments / vertices are used here. Just from looking at the object, my feeling is that 400k is way too much for a relativly simple object like that.

My 2ct as a fledgling GMAX user,
Mark

 

[roger-wilco-66]

Francois makes FS Scenery all the time with this program.

Have you gone into FSDeveloper.com to ask questions on how to export this into FS? You might be surprise at how easy it is. I think MCX (ModelConverterX) by Arno will conver this directly to MDL format, and then you run it through the BGLC-9 compiler with the location XML to create a proper BGL file.

You are almost there!

Bill

Exactly. You can easily export it directly as a FSX mdl file, in the newer beta versions of MCX even directly into a single-file archive BGL. You might have to correct textures though (power of 2) or convert them to dxt-bmps or better dds format prior to the export.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[OleBoy]

I haven't run into this issue ever. I guess you have to simplify it. Try using textures instead of polys for the details.

In normal circumstances I would have offered my services to design your hangar as I like your idea, but these days are extremely busy at work and will be so for at least the next 3-4 months. PM me your email and I can send you some examples of objects that might be of help as reference.

Thanks for popping in, Dimus.

Polys are something I didn't even think about when I started messing with GS. Manual?, Read? Read what? I merely opened the program and learned as I went. Before I knew it I had built something. And it looked good.
That approach and continued method got great results, but it was entirely not practical for an FSX model. I can't believe I managed to get the model exported and useable in FSX back when I did, even if it was missing some textures.
I won't give up on the design. I like it. I'll have to change how I build it with textures applied. Now I know "how" to do this. Because the way the textures are tiled threw me a curve. I did not realize just one of those tiles could be repositioned to the exact area. Manual?, Read? Read what? LOL!

That's 65k vertices _per_ single drawcall (vertex stream / vertex buffer), not for the overall model. This is a limit that comes from FSX and the xtomdl compiler. There's nothing MCX can change here.

But there are a few tricks. Oleboy, reducing drawcalls batches the texture vertices together and therefore you can exceed that limit, expecially when MCX has to batch solid colors together and bake them into a texture. If you open the original (not drawcall optimized) file in MCX, have a look at the model properties, there's a table that tells you how many vertices are assigned to each drawcall. If you already exceed the limit here, you'll have to go back to the 3d design and make some fundamental changes here.
One of the problems that occur in that matter come from assigning solid colors (no textures) to 3d models. This should be avoided from the beginning for various reasons and can cause these problems when you bake the colors to a texture in the MCX drawcall optimizer as mentioned above. So if your model has solid colors, replace them with textures in SU. In GMAX / 3DS I'd optimize the model by welding vertices to reduce their number and so on but I don't know SU enough to give any tips here.

Edit: when you simplify the model, have a look at all cylindrical objects. These can have relativly high vertex numbers when they have too many horizontal and vertical segments, and that number explodes when texturing occurs. The same goes for cube objects. Check how many segments / vertices are used here. Just from looking at the object, my feeling is that 400k is way too much for a relativly simple object like that.

My 2ct as a fledgling GMAX user,
Mark

Draw calls were a major hit for the model. 28 in total. Even after running the MTE it didn't help much. And there were a LOT of solid colors.
As for the cylindrical objects, not needed. But the LOOKED good! LOL I confess, I LIKE details. I just can't have them the way I design them in. I'm taking a different approach using hig-rez textures laid on simple exteriors. It will take some doing. And PATIENCE. I'll get it sorted eventually.

Exactly. You can easily export it directly as a FSX mdl file, in the newer beta versions of MCX even directly into a single-file archive BGL. You might have to correct textures though (power of 2) or convert them to dxt-bmps or better dds format prior to the export.

Cheers,
Mark

Thanks for the assistance, Mark. Regardless if you have much SU knowledge. You ARE trying to help.
I'm in the process of creating a texture template in Adobe Photoshop that I can export/use. I'm sure that will help drawcalls immensely.

Mr. Ortis, Bill, I can't forget you. I almost did. Any help you can muster goes under the ole hat. Thanks

Grafmann, thank you. All the input I receive helps!

 

[Lionheart]

What some people do is have very small squares on a texture sheet, and they will assign parts to that small area on their UVW Mappings. But.... It tends to look a bit basic if they are large areas on a model (like a big wall).. I found that shading areas really helps with their realism, but with super small parts, those small squares in a large texture sheet really help.


To get around the texture per 65,K Limit, you can create Copies of your material into 2, 3, 6, 8, etc, to accomodate the entire model. Just note that you must change some setting on each material a fraction of an amount to make them truly different or it will not count as a new material. Example, change shine from say 20 to 21, for one, repeat with 22 as the second copy, 23 for the third copy, etc.


I have put some very complex shapes and assemblies in FS. Parked planes, army tanks in groups of 20, supply depots with tons of vehicles and oil drums and buildings, etc. So one hanger should be no big deal, getting it in there. Just remember in the future to be easy on Polygons. You do not want 50,000 polygons in a single fire extinguisher.



Bill

 

[stiz]

if you want you can send me a .obj or .3ds version (MCX can do that) i could build it and get it all built, textured, exported and useable for you. It'll be done in 3ds max mind you. Anyways its a pretty simple shape so shouldnt take long to do

 

[rdaniell]

Here's a small tip that I stumbled upon that I thought some of you'll might not be aware of.....If you don't want all your windows lighting up at night, then use a slightly different window texture with a unique name for the ones you want to light up. Just apply the LM texture to that texture.

RD

 

[OleBoy]

What some people do is have very small squares on a texture sheet, and they will assign parts to that small area on their UVW Mappings. But.... It tends to look a bit basic if they are large areas on a model (like a big wall).. I found that shading areas really helps with their realism, but with super small parts, those small squares in a large texture sheet really help.

To get around the texture per 65,K Limit, you can create Copies of your material into 2, 3, 6, 8, etc, to accomodate the entire model. Just note that you must change some setting on each material a fraction of an amount to make them truly different or it will not count as a new material. Example, change shine from say 20 to 21, for one, repeat with 22 as the second copy, 23 for the third copy, etc.

I have put some very complex shapes and assemblies in FS. Parked planes, army tanks in groups of 20, supply depots with tons of vehicles and oil drums and buildings, etc. So one hanger should be no big deal, getting it in there. Just remember in the future to be easy on Polygons. You do not want 50,000 polygons in a single fire extinguisher.

Bill

I appreciate the info, Bill. I'll be visiting this topic frequently with all the knowledge it contains. Great reference!
But, WHOA there big fella. You're a well seasoned vet when it comes to modeling. Me, I'm learning to walk yet.

if you want you can send me a .obj or .3ds version (MCX can do that) i could build it and get it all built, textured, exported and useable for you. It'll be done in 3ds max mind you. Anyways its a pretty simple shape so shouldnt take long to do

I duly appreciate your offer Stiz. Although the model was already imported into 3DSmax. It's a godforsaken mess I tell ya! The only comment I can say to that is, I'm as green as an UN-ripe apple when it comes to modeling. It's not worth the time to dissect.
I took some time and really studied the design. Took some measurements, and started fresh. The modeling and textures seem to be going together fairly smooth. It's starting to look like something again. I'm about half done with it. And, it exports fine so far.

Here's a small tip that I stumbled upon that I thought some of you'll might not be aware of.....If you don't want all your windows lighting up at night, then use a slightly different window texture with a unique name for the ones you want to light up. Just apply the LM texture to that texture.

RD

Good tip RD!! :salute:

Here's the new model in it's current state.

 

[anthony31]

As for the cylindrical objects, not needed. But the LOOKED good! LOL I confess, I LIKE details. I just can't have them the way I design them in. I'm taking a different approach using hig-rez textures laid on simple exteriors. It will take some doing. And PATIENCE. I'll get it sorted eventually.

No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Cylindrical objects need not take up too many polys. Just make a cylinder with 12 faces and that adds up to no more than 36 triangles (even less if Sketchup makes the top properly). For a scenery object 12 faces is more than enough to show the cylinder, use 16 faces for more detail. Any more than that and you're just wasting polygons. Just looking at the pic of your hangar you shouldn't need more than 10,000 polys to do the whole thing (even with the round posts).

Important thing to remember is to delete any polygons that you will not be able to see, for example, with the posts they will have the curved sides, a top and a bottom. The bottom is pointing to the ground so will never be visible so delete that poly to free up polygons (and more importantly save FSX having to work out whether it needs to draw these polygons or not, ie it improves framerates).

 

[OleBoy]

I'm dealing with with starting over fairly well. A different approach. The correct way.

This is the new hanger.

The upper wall is a headache. I'll get it eventually.

And it imports to MCX, and exports as a .MDL

 

[N2056]

The key to successful modeling is easy.
If you want it bad enough you will find a way to make it happen.
Okay...maybe not that simple, but you are working in the right direction, and learning something in the process. Looking good so far!

 

[Francois]

I am late to the party as usual......... and assorted people here know MORE than I could tell ya anyway ! Looking good and I am thrilled that you are learning too.... like I am
It's just that 3D modelers need more lives than just one..... 3 would be nice