Oceana F/A-18 pilots grounded after low flyover

[jmig]

I served in the Navy on LSD 39 U.S.S. MT Vernon (an amphibious ship currently on permanent patrol Naval Weapons Station Catalina, ca.), I have been out pushing 14 years. We road in the back of the bus and most of the time we were not sure what carrier we were following. To punish these pilots is a crime, they flew too low they are trained professionals at no time was anyone or any property in danger. They were doing a low speed pass. Unlike some of the Air National Guard stationed in Fresno ca., my office is just up the street from the airport and those rocket jockeys are at mach 1+ over the city all the time on their takeoffs.
The Navy Pilots just wanted the people at the game to get an up-close good look at what their tax $$ are paying for in flight.
John

Sorry John, I have to correct you here. You might unknowingly confuse others. While it may sound to you that they are going over Mach 1, I can assure they are not. If they did, chances are you would lose some of your office windows and you would then KNOW what Mach 1+ sounds like.

When I was flying in the USAF we had to log every Mach 1+ flight over land. We had to show where we started and ended. This was in case someone claimed damages. The difference between .98 mach and mach 1 is nothing inside the cockpit. But it is a BIG difference outside of the cockpit.

 

[Ken Stallings]

That's very true. If they were flying at transsonic speeds or higher, you would have heard a sound that would have made you duck under your desk in fear someone had set off a bomb in your office.

No joke!

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Willy]

I remember sonic booms as a kid in Southern California when my dad was stationed there. Once you've heard one, you'll not forget it.

Mt Vernon eh? USS Tortuga (LSD 46) out of Little Creek here. Gotta love a gator freighter!

 

[WND]

I find it ironic that the "Blues" and the "Birds" break rules at every airshow and all they get is a hand shake and a "job well done" and yet these 2 pilots who reported themselves upon landing get a much stiffer penalty!!!

I guess it's not what you did BUT who did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

The blues and the birds (and indeed every pro demo team) break no regulations whatsoever.

That is not true at all. The Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds fly under an aerobatic waiver that is specific to each demonstration. Within that waiver, there are another set of rules as well as the airshow's specific rules. That being said, They don't break the rules.

Skittles & Tigisfat:

I stand corrected on my comment! That was not quite a correct statement I made and I apologize for that - I certainly don't want to mislead anyone with in-correct information!!!!!!!

Since I HAVE NOT attended "EVERY" "Blues" and Birds" show, I will replace the word "EVERY" with "AIRSHOW's THAT I HAVE ATTENDED"!!!

Having been a pilot for quite some time, having "Airbossed" airshows for over 20 years, and for the SOLE PURPOSE of this thread, I will stand by my CORRECTED statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

 

[jmig]

Skittles & Tigisfat:

I stand corrected on my comment! That was not quite a correct statement I made and I apologize for that - I certainly don't want to mislead anyone with in-correct information!!!!!!!

Since I HAVE NOT attended "EVERY" "Blues" and Birds" show, I will replace the word "EVERY" with "AIRSHOW's THAT I HAVE ATTENDED"!!!

Having been a pilot for quite some time, having "Airbossed" airshows for over 20 years, and for the SOLE PURPOSE of this thread, I will stand by my CORRECTED statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill

Hi Bill! I am confused now? Since you have been an airboss, you obviously are familiar with the rules and regs governing airshows. If I read your statement correctly, it seems to me that you feel as if you are correct in your original statement that the TBs and Blues violate the rules during their performances? You are only conceding the "always" point.

I have been fortunate to fly a low pass tight formation flyby in two different airshows. In both cases during the pre-flight briefing we went over what we were to do and not do, i.e. overfly the crowds, altitudes, where the IP of the pass would be, etc. In videos of the TBs and Blue Angels I have seen them discussing these exact same things during their briefings.

I guess my confusing and question is, you obviously are familiar with what can and cannot be done at airshows. So, just how are these demo/acrobatic teams violating the AFRs at these shows? I am genuinely curious. I assumed that they had waviers for the low flying.

 

[Odie]

That is not true at all. The Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds fly under an aerobatic waiver that is specific to each demonstration. Within that waiver, there are another set of rules as well as the airshow's specific rules. That being said, They don't break the rules.

Tig is correct. They have to work with the FAA closely in show prep and there's an FAA official onsite every day of the show to work with the airshow planners in case "changes" in the planned routines are needed. This includes every a/c going up to perform.

In addition, they have to get an okay from the host city authorities as well.

 

[centuryseries]

The difference visually speaking between "a few hundred feet" versus 1,000 feet AGL is very difficult to detect in flight.

I'm sure two experienced naval aviators who land on a carrier deck a couple of hundred feet above sea level know the difference between 200 feet, and 1000 feet! Otherwise it's amazing they didn't crash into the deck!!

but the fact they landed and promptly filed a report on themselves shows it was unintentional.

Or a sign of total guilt. If it was unintentional and they didn't realise, they would not have said anything surely!

As much as I like a low pass, rules are rules - if they didn't make examples of pilots doing this sort of thing breaking rules would be seen to be okay.

Top Gun types eh!

 

[PRB]

That's very true. If they were flying at transsonic speeds or higher, you would have heard a sound that would have made you duck under your desk in fear someone had set off a bomb in your office.

No joke!

Cheers,

Ken

No joke is right. A while back, while working at NAS Lemoore, an FA-18C did a supersonic pass. We all thought he screwed up, but evidently it was authorized. We were on the second floor of the flight simulation building. I've seen supersonic passes while standing on the ground outside, but never, before this incident, while inside a building. The building mooved, a lot. It was huge. It felt like an earthquake, accompanied by the loud boom. One of our graphic artists did dive under the desk! We all had a good laugh over that for a while...

 

[WND]

Good Morning John:

You are correct, there are MANY "general" rules governing an airshow and there are "specific" rules based on many different issues for that specific airshow and it's surroundings etc. Whenever there is public attendance at an airshow, the governing body (in this country) is the FAA - even if you have military participation..

A pilots briefing is MANDATORY!!! I would hold mine no later than 1 hour prior to show start (I would try for 2) - that way we could get the main briefing done, the individual groups had time to finalize their stuff - and I could get together with each group, and the pilots could get to their aircraft and relax a few minutes before things got going.. I assume you where the pilot in your 2 shows?? The reason I say that is I never allowed "passengers" to participate in the shows - only mandatory crew members... For safety reasons.. However I will also say that a few times I got overruled on that issue - probably because of political reason's!!! lol

Now, I'm not saying they violated ALL the rules, but I have witnessed a rule or 2 broken!!

Example: At a show (as you probably are aware of since you participated in a couple), you have a "crowd line" and you have several "show" lines - which are dictated upon the speed of the aircraft doing the routine - and there generally the center line of the runway. Another words, a small bi-plane (such as a Pitts) can use a 500' show line, a higher performance aircraft (say a P-51) has to use a 1000' show line, and real high performance aircraft (jets) are at a 1500' (or greater) show line. The bigger the airport, the easier it is to control!!! If we where doing a show at a large airport, we would set the "crowd line" at the greatest distance and then change the "show line" for a particular aircraft. You really get tested when you do shows at small airports because the "crowd line" extends all the way around the airport!!! So now you have hangers / houses or whatever to contend with!!!

The performers CANNOT get any closer than that to the crowd OR crowd line.. And that includes whether he / she is making a low pass or at the top of a loop!!! On occasion I had to warn pilots during their routine that they where "drifting" but that was a rarity.

So, whenever you see (and I'm sure you have) an aircraft heading towards the crowd / flying over the crowd BUT inside that distance between his / her "show line" and the "crowd line", A RULE is being broken!!!! BTW, the "show line" goes all the way around the crowd - not just in front of them and then once outside the confines of the airport, you have other rules that apply as well.

Now, that's just one example but it was the easiest one to explain at the moment, and I hope it helped.. I will also say that I had to answer to a "higher up" and as long as he was happy - I was happy!!!

The point I was trying to make regarding this thread was the fact that it didn't matter what was done BUT who did it!!!

Hope you have a great day..

Bill

 

[Ken Stallings]

Centuryseries,

I spent a career flying low level in various C-130's. Your eyeballs aren't good enough to calibrate the difference between 500 and 1000 feet. You can perceive differences, but often you can be decieved by optical illusions.

The testimony is they did not realize the error until they got close enough to the stadium to recognize the situation. That is a classic example of using a known height reference. The carrier is a known height reference and pilots can use that consistently well to gauge their altitude.

But as a pilot you should realize how often visual glideslope can be fooled when you are landing at a runway considerably narrower or wider than one you are accustomed to. Further, it is known that when approaching a runway sitting on a plateau, you are often below glideslope because you are gauging your altitude by what's below you vice the runway that is sitting up higher.

The reverse is true when a runway is in a valley. You tend to come in too high.

The point is that optical illusions are a known issue and pilots who have supreme faith in their abilities to gauge altitude with their eyes can often kill themselves being unable to perceive the situation accurately. My view is this admiral has supreme faith in his ability to judge a situation he wasn't there to see himself. Seems to me he flew himself into the rocks!

Cheers,

Ken

 

[clmooring]

I live a few miles from oceana and I will tell you that the f18's fly the landing pattern over lynnheaven mall no much higher than that everyday. A few years ago I lived on their approach, and they flew over my house not much higher than that and T that speed; sometimes a lot faster.

In Virginia Beech, it is called the sound of freedom.