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The Staff of SOH
Paths of Hate
- Thread starter Phantom88
- Start date
warchild
Charter Member
ahhh so true guys, but what it so wonderfully shows, is the part we each have deep inside of, that we will not own and will deny is there. Its the part we as a "civilized" species, most fear because it harkens back to our most primitive drives.
First he loses his god ( the rosary breaks ) then he loses his care for his wife ( the picture gets bloodied and flies out the window ) then he loses his last trace of humanity and becomes the animal we are all afraid of becoming.. Well, most of us..
First he loses his god ( the rosary breaks ) then he loses his care for his wife ( the picture gets bloodied and flies out the window ) then he loses his last trace of humanity and becomes the animal we are all afraid of becoming.. Well, most of us..
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
I tend to wonder if pride isn't playing a role here as well. There is a reason it is a deadly sin.
fsafranek
SOH-CM-2024
warchild
Charter Member
in many ways, I couldnt agree more.. In other ways, i agree but see the complexities surrounding it.
Agreed, but it is still a great video showing the destructiveness of hatred. No soul searching needed for those who have had to take life in war, it was just something that was necessary to accomplish the mission. Even though it affects folks differently the result is still the same, somebody goes home, somebody doesn't. Hate is an acid on the soul. Killing someone in war does not remotely mean that you hate that person. On a personal level it is just about survival, nothing more.
wombat666
Administrator
A crock in my NSHO.
Interesting animation, but no deep and profound meanings.
As a former professional soldier 'Hate' is not an emotion that comes into play, it is a waste of energy, irrational and totally 'Unprofessional'.
As for 'Survival', not at all, one just gets on and does one's job.
Period.
Interesting animation, but no deep and profound meanings.
As a former professional soldier 'Hate' is not an emotion that comes into play, it is a waste of energy, irrational and totally 'Unprofessional'.
As for 'Survival', not at all, one just gets on and does one's job.
Period.
TeaSea
SOH-CM-2014
I was wondering about that Roger....good catch, although completely innocent posting for which I too would add my thanks.
As for hate and all this other soul searching.... I have to echo the thoughts of other combat vets. I know Hollywood likes to portray all this angst and emotion, but my own experience is very, very different. Everyone focuses on their immediate job. Some of the most calm people I've ever seen are in combat. There may be a surge of adrenaline, but people are totally focused and objective and beyond a certain amount of tension I've never observed a lot of emotion.
I speak only from my experience obviously, but in talking with other vets I think it pretty much matches theirs.
As for hate and all this other soul searching.... I have to echo the thoughts of other combat vets. I know Hollywood likes to portray all this angst and emotion, but my own experience is very, very different. Everyone focuses on their immediate job. Some of the most calm people I've ever seen are in combat. There may be a surge of adrenaline, but people are totally focused and objective and beyond a certain amount of tension I've never observed a lot of emotion.
I speak only from my experience obviously, but in talking with other vets I think it pretty much matches theirs.
Bjoern
worst developer ever
While I despise those overly dramatic Hollywood flicks, I think they have a point showing men breaking down.
Although this most probably only happens during resting periods when the adrenaline levels back down again and one can start to actually think about everything.
"Generation Kill" shows this quite well. One Corporal is on stims basically all the way from the border to Baghdad. He talks and talks, gets out of his HMMWV under fire to dissolve a traffic jam, talks even more and just when they get a few days of R&R in Baghdad and the stims wear off, he is shown not saying even a single word and gets all moot because he finally copes with what had happened in the last few days.
Gets the point across very well.
heywooood
Mayor Emeritus of Taco City
so there is no room for hatred in war...? amazing notion.
is that only on the lowly soldiers level - where basic survival has to be the only occupation...where all else is a distraction?
maybe only that which brings mankind to warfare involves the 'spirit' of hatred?...or is there no hate there either?..
maybe the hatred is reserved for Generals and Admirals, plotting and planning the best, quickest ways to destroy their opponent in the field.
many have argued that toward the end of the war in the Pacific, when the US was effectively using incendiary weapons against the largest population centers on the island of Japan, there was
no need to use the atomic bombs...that it was hatred of the Japanese on the one hand - and / or - the desire to show then USSR leadership that the US had achieved this ridiculous capability first... an egocentric 'reason' or a geopolitical one, on the other hand, if you like.
Many veterans of that war that I have had the opportunity to know have said that they HATED the Japanese of that time for a specific reason...and that they would have gone to war in either theater - but
especially noted this difference between the way they thought of fighting Germany vs. the way they thought of fighting Japan.
but to say flatly that there is no room for hatred in war...maybe not even in battle is more disturbing than letting hate rule....it leaves only blood lust, or ego as motivation because if you try to say it is survival instinct I have an answer for you...you wouldn't put yourself there in the first place.
I liked the video for its artistic and technical merit - and the fact that it did not glorify war...rather it symbolized an aspect of humanity that is dark and ominous - our willingness to fight to the death with each other
and destroy our own kind in blood red battle regardless of the cause or 'reason'
is that only on the lowly soldiers level - where basic survival has to be the only occupation...where all else is a distraction?
maybe only that which brings mankind to warfare involves the 'spirit' of hatred?...or is there no hate there either?..
maybe the hatred is reserved for Generals and Admirals, plotting and planning the best, quickest ways to destroy their opponent in the field.
many have argued that toward the end of the war in the Pacific, when the US was effectively using incendiary weapons against the largest population centers on the island of Japan, there was
no need to use the atomic bombs...that it was hatred of the Japanese on the one hand - and / or - the desire to show then USSR leadership that the US had achieved this ridiculous capability first... an egocentric 'reason' or a geopolitical one, on the other hand, if you like.
Many veterans of that war that I have had the opportunity to know have said that they HATED the Japanese of that time for a specific reason...and that they would have gone to war in either theater - but
especially noted this difference between the way they thought of fighting Germany vs. the way they thought of fighting Japan.
but to say flatly that there is no room for hatred in war...maybe not even in battle is more disturbing than letting hate rule....it leaves only blood lust, or ego as motivation because if you try to say it is survival instinct I have an answer for you...you wouldn't put yourself there in the first place.
I liked the video for its artistic and technical merit - and the fact that it did not glorify war...rather it symbolized an aspect of humanity that is dark and ominous - our willingness to fight to the death with each other
and destroy our own kind in blood red battle regardless of the cause or 'reason'
The alternative to hatred in war is not necessarily “ego & blood lust.” How about simple courage and detached professionalism? And it probably matters what your particular experience was. 20Mm gunners on the exposed weather decks of destroyers charging Japanese battleships off Samar in 1944, or fending off kamikaze attacks didn't have much control over their destiny. They were along for the ride, more or less. They could hate or not hate, it didn't make much difference. Fighter pilots, on the other hand, had more control over their fate. They could disengage when they wanted to, or at least try to. Did it help them to hate? I would guess not. If you believe Tom Blackburn, CO of VF-17, combat was fun and exciting. Not scary, and no hatred, just fun, like Disneyland. Of course he was flying F4Us against the Japanese, not F4Fs, still I'm a bit skeptical... And then there was General Patton. He said the reason the US Army was doing so poorly against the Germans in North Africa was that our guys simply didn't hate the Germans enough. If you were a prisoner of the Japanese in WW-II, you could probably be excused for feeling a bit of hatred. Everyone's experience is different.
fsafranek
SOH-CM-2024
"Haters are our motivators" and/or hatred is a great motivator.
It seems to me that when you're out of bullets and still have the means to get out of there you do so. You do have one weapon left though and that is the gun the bullets are fired from or in this case, your aircraft. When I first watched the opening four minutes as presented in a talk on the film by the director it stopped just as they were both out of bullets and flying side by side. In Hollywood style, and probably the way most military aviators think, it would have been time to salute and fly off "to live and try another day". But I thought to myself, if you hate your opponent that much you do have one weapon left. But then the film stopped.
In the full version of course they both come to that same realization and used their aircraft, their only means of escape, in a jousting match with pistols. When the pistols were empty they could have been used as clubs but they were dropped in frustration.
Further up is a link to the director's discussion. I would encourage anyone who hasn't seen any of the film, and those who have only seen the whole thing, to watch it. It's pretty interesting.
:ernae:
It seems to me that when you're out of bullets and still have the means to get out of there you do so. You do have one weapon left though and that is the gun the bullets are fired from or in this case, your aircraft. When I first watched the opening four minutes as presented in a talk on the film by the director it stopped just as they were both out of bullets and flying side by side. In Hollywood style, and probably the way most military aviators think, it would have been time to salute and fly off "to live and try another day". But I thought to myself, if you hate your opponent that much you do have one weapon left. But then the film stopped.
In the full version of course they both come to that same realization and used their aircraft, their only means of escape, in a jousting match with pistols. When the pistols were empty they could have been used as clubs but they were dropped in frustration.
Further up is a link to the director's discussion. I would encourage anyone who hasn't seen any of the film, and those who have only seen the whole thing, to watch it. It's pretty interesting.
:ernae: