Project Martin A-30 Baltimore

Hello All,

Smilo hasn't mentioned that a few years back, I was working on a Dornier 17Z-2.
I never really had much interest in the aeroplane but was working on it for a while until it get set aside for other projects.
It isn't that I CAN'T finish the project; it is more like wanting to spend time on other more deserving projects.
You all have seen my version of the B-25C. Smilo for sure has a copy by now but of course it has never been a public release.
It won't be until I can get a proper set of gauges for it which means I need to do some more programming.
The P-38 Lightnings are waiting for the same thing.....

There are so many worthy projects and so little free time and energy to do them.
A malfunctioning development machine has not helped things either.
In any case, even on my best days, I was not building as fast as Aleatorylamp does today.

Current outstanding task is to test Service Ceiling and Terminal Velocity of the BV 141B.
I probably will not get to it tonight though....
Last couple nights were spent working with my Daughter on Physics stuff.
Tonight I expect it will be English.....

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,
If it´s just gauges, and the B-25-C and P-38 are finished, and a panel upgrade could be a future task, then an upload in my opinion would be just fine! ...but of course that depends on the developer, so it´s naturally your decision!

Well, the Baltimore panel I derived from the P47D looks fitting, and the gauges are "a grosso modo" those seen on the one photo of the Baltimore-cockpit, so I think I´ll upload the models this morning.

Then, I had a closer look at photos and drawings of the Do-17 aircraft, and its design is quite appealing. It looks like the Ju-88 design ran along the same lines. The CFS1 Do-17 AI version looks like a painted cardboard mock-up, hence a nice version would indeed be desirable for CFS1!

But, instead of scratch building one, perhaps I could try and finish the Do-17Z you are working on, if you were willing to have this done as a "joint effort". I would of course submit the end result to you for approval prior to any release. That would save me some time, and take advantage of the efforts you have already made! What would you say to that suggestion? - Don´t feel forced to agree, just say "No" if you fell like it, I won´t feel offended!

Good luck with your development computer - or its possible successor!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Last edited:
Baltimores uploaded!

Hello folks!
I´ve just corrected the nose texture of the Coastal Command version and taken out some hairline cracks visible from the virtual cockpit view and re-SCASMed the 3 models, and then I uploaded them.
So, here are the links for the new Martin Baltimores, the Mk.II, Mk.IV and Mk.IV:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=18&id=22049
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=18&id=22050
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...id=18&id=22051

As always, any complaints, rotten eggs or vegetables or perhaps suggestions for improvement will be very much appreciated, so that this hobby of ours retains some quality!

P.S. Rami has thankfully just slipped in the custom thrust gauge that was at first missing, into all three models!

OK, then, I hope you enjoy the models!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Last edited:
Dornier Do 17Z-2 Fliegender Bleistift

Hello Aleatorylamp,

The message quotes feature seems to be broken again. I hope I can cover all the points you brought up.

The B-25C and both Lightnings have most of the difficult work done.
The MitchellC is SCASMed the Lightnings are not yet and do not have a proper paint scheme.
As far as I am concerned, the primary purposes for these projects were accomplished years ago.
The Mitchell was to see if I could build a decent looking Twin within AF99 limitations.
The Lightning was really a design study to see if I could get past where others had gone with the P-38 (again within AF99 limits).
It would be nice to upload them and that is the driver for my learning more about Gauge Programming.
If they were already uploaded, there would be no incentive for the gauges.
The push to finish edits to my BV 141B is because I really want to learn something about how to build an interesting panel.
Keep in mind that the BV 141B was originally released back in January 2003 with just a FW 190A panel which is functionally sufficient for the aeroplane.

Regarding the Dornier 17Z-2:
This is not even close to the Junkers 88 in complexity of modelling.
If you spend some time reviewing the photographs of the aeroplane from different angles you will see what I mean.
The blended Wing / Fuselage joint is much more resource intensive than the simple butt-joint of the Junkers 88 or the Mitchell.
The V shaped Fuselage Cross-Section is again much more complicated than the Rounded Rectangles for Mitchell or Ju 88.
The Flap and Engine Nacelle area is one that will be very difficult to do properly within AF99.

I had seen this from the start, so the plan was never to build this as a single AF99 Project.
I designed my version to be around 5 separate AF99 Projects with fairly high resource counts and final assembly to be done within SCASM.

It doesn't make sense to send you what I currently have because it isn't particularly well organised and would not serve as any more than a bunch of templates for you. Almost none of the Parts would be useable because they would need to be greatly simplified and combined to bring the resource count even close to a single AF99 Project.

The last activity on the project was actually a screw-up in the Canopy Framing due to a bad count.
It seemed to me at that point that Smilo was losing interest anyway, and I never really had that much interest in what is essentially a "Target", so rather than put in the two or three evenings to rebuild an incomplete project, I just put it on indefinite hold. Who knows? I may pick up the project again when life slows down a bit.

- Ivan.
 
I suppose this may be a silly question, but what exactly is a bomb-aimer panel and how does one go about using it?

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your clarifications! When I on the spur of the moment offered to finish the Do-17Z I had absolutely no idea of the complexities involved, and my comparison to the Ju-88 was only an initial impression.

Well, obviously an endeavour to build a better version of the Do-17 than the CFS1 AI one, would obviously be subject to AF99´s possibilities of providing a model of reasonable quality. With this in mind, from what you are saying, it sounds like there are difficult areas in the build that will require SCASM, and that is out of my scope! I think I´ll stick to just AF99 - with the SCASM VCockpit correction!

Well, well... it was just a thought. I´ll have to think again about the choice for my next project. Hopefully it will be something interesting from which I can learn something new. Let´s see what I can find...

The silly question on the bomb-aimer panel is not so silly... I only have a vague idea as to what that could be:

Possibly it could be a frame containing the vertical map view with a certain degree of Zoom:
At a certain height and speed, possibly a scale with crosshairs tells you when to release the bombs - maybe you can see the point you have to bomb at the top of the window, so you release the bombs, which will then impact when target reaches the centre of the crosshairs? Bit I´m sure Hubbabubba could clarify this!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
bomb aimer panels...
where does one start?
right, hubba?
how many hours have we spent
exploring another facet of cfs?
my, oh my, we did have some kinda fun.
 
i guess the bombadier panel bmp
is as good of a place to start as any.
this one is for a B-17.


if there is any interest in this subject,
i'll start a new thread.
 

Attachments

  • B17Nose.jpg
    B17Nose.jpg
    41.1 KB · Views: 1
Baltimore Walkaround

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Tonight I finally had a chance to check out your Baltimores.
I downloaded them a couple days ago but the schedule over the last few days has been Physics and Algebra II.

The Baltimores appear to be an admirably clean build without any obvious bleeds from the outside.

They do appear to have what I consider to be a few issues that are not very difficult to fix.

As I mentioned earlier, the model looks pretty clean, but it does have one very noticeable problem:
The Port Side Propeller is pitched backwards.
The Wing also looks like it has zero dihedral, but I don't know enough about the aeroplane to know if that should be the case.

One other aspect of the model is that the Engines, Propellers, Antenna Mast and Nose Floor all bleed into the VCockpit.
This is a very easy thing to fix in SCASM.

In Textures there appear to be a great number of odd things:
1. There are no Panel Lines, Bomb Bay Doors, or anything to mark the Control Surfaces.
2. The Pilot's Uniform appears to be an odd colour for the USAAF or RAF.
3. The belly of the Baltimore Mk.V seems to have an odd pattern of paint.

The Panel only has Magneto and Starter controls for the Port Engine.
The Starboard one cannot be started via the Panel.
The Tachometers do not indicate correct Engine RPM.
Why is there a Control Surface Indicator? Did the real aircraft have one?

I don't know enough about the flight characteristics of this aeroplane but a couple features stand out.
The Take-Off acceleration is comparable to Fighters Shouldn't it be slower?
The aeroplane seems to be very low in directional stability.

That is all I have found thus far and I don't even know for certain that these things are not correct.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your detailed answer. I´m glad that altogether the Baltimores didn´t come out too bad!
So, until the improvment work is done they will not irritate anyone too much! I´ll check the issues that you have pointed out, and then we can talk about SCASM-correcting the virtual cockpit.

The dihedral is visibly very small on the diagrammes. Then, I must have just mirrored the propeller instead of making a separate one for the opposite side.

As for the textures, I´m not very good at the lines... but I´ll try to put them in. The only ones I did were for flaps, ailerons, rudder and elevator.I´ll try to fit in some for the bomb-bay doord and correct the belly texture- What seems to be happening is that the roof is wrapping round to the belly. I belive this can be fixed by manually adjusting the texture-spread.

About the pilot´uniform, maybe it sould be brown or grey with black buttons perhaps?

For the Tachometers to indicate the correct RPM, you have to change the screen size mode, and it will fix itself: If in Window-size, go into Full-screen view mode (or vice versa), and then go back to where you like to have it. It´s a problem the FSFS Conv. Tachometers have in CFS1.

Are there any twin-engine Starter and Magnetoes? I couldn´t find any, and had to use stock ones. We had the same problem on the AT-9 Jeep (Fledgling). Then, I thought the Control Surface Indicator was necessary for simmers - but I can take it out no problem!

Anyway, before tackling another project I´ll fix this one!
Thanks for your feedback! Let´s see if I can improve the model!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Quotes appear to be broken again.....

Hello Aleatorylamp,

I had intended to post these screenshots last night but forgot.

As you can see from the first screenshot, the Aileron / Flap lines are not present at least on the underside of the Baltimore Mk.V.
Regarding the camouflage pattern wrapping around the Belly, I ALWAYS edit the default scales by hand.
It lets you adjust the texture scales to match other sections on the Fuselage and on the Wings and Tail, it allows for a "centered" appearance AFTER the rendering / smoothing is done by the simulator.
I have illustrated the technique a few times, most recently with the Lightning Design Study.
I will try the post with the appropriate screenshots.
This is also an opportunity to match scales across the different sections and to use "square" textures.
Perhaps I will try to illustrate on one of the models that I still need to texture........

The VCockpit screenshot is posted here so I can describe a solution to the bleeds.
To get to what you currently have, you had to add a TransformCall in SCASM to the MAINSTR (Main Start) Label.
My solution to these bleeds is to redisplay those sections that have other things bleeding through, so instead of

:MAINIVC ; Main Interior Virtual Cockpit.
TransformCall MAINSTR
Return

I would have this

:MAINIVC ; Main Interior Virtual Cockpit.
TransformCall MAINSTR
TransformCall COCKPIT
Return

:COCKPIT
Call CanopyFrame
Call CockpitAftWall
Call CockpitFloor
Call CockpitPanel
Return

I hope this makes sense.......

- Ivan.

P.S. Darn. I just noticed that my screenshot of the VCockpit barfed.
 

Attachments

  • Baltimore5_Underside.jpg
    Baltimore5_Underside.jpg
    36.9 KB · Views: 0
  • Baltimore5_VCockpit.jpg
    Baltimore5_VCockpit.jpg
    17.5 KB · Views: 0
Hello Ivan,
Thanks very much indeed for your additional info. At least the problems on the Baltimores are quite easily solved.

Oh, dear! I missed the control surface lines on the underside of the Mk.V wings. I thought I´d done them on all models using the magic wand option to transport the lines from one bitmap to the other. Anyway, I´ll put it right, and also have a go at putting in some extra lines for the bomb bay and perhaps to outline the engines, as well as some vertical and horizontal lines on the fuselage.

My Texture department doesn´t have much experience yet, neither does the Panel department for that matter, as this work was always outsourced in past years. But slowly no doubt I´ll get there in the end! It´s really quite amazing, how many completely different aspects apart from actually building the model are involed in its production. There is always something that slips through the net! It was only a few weeks ago that I managed to decypher rear-firing guns in the Dp files! Live and learn...

Thanks for the SCASM text. It is reminiscent of the SCASMing of the Virtual cockpits for the WW1 Zeppelin and Gotha Bombers, where a second Transformcall in the listing caters for the Cockpit parts, to block out any other parts like engines, tails and noses. I see it´s quite clear, and shouldn´t be problematic.

Structural corrections: Obviously a pair of extra eyes notice more than mine, thanks!
Left propeller: This was a mistakenly mirrored right one, and a quick solution was to re-fit it as another right one, un-mirrored, and shifting it over to the left side.
Dihedral: Yes, that was off too! On the diagrams, the top surface is virtually horizontal, which led to my mistake of making the wings with no dihedral. The fix is easy by re-fitting wings, outer flaps and wingtips with a one-degree dihedral, re-texturing and finally recompiling. Thankfully there´s no need to rebuild all that!

Ok, gotta rush to a class! Although I´m officially retired as of yesterday, I plan to continue giving at least one or two classes in the afternoons.
More later!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Last edited:
SCASMing the Virtual Cockpit

Hello Ivan,
OK, I´m done with the propeller and texture corrections on the first of the 3 Baltimores, but I´m afraid I´ll have to ask you for some advice about SCASM to fit in the extra VCockpit parts that will stop the fin and engine bleedthroughs into the Virtual Cockpit.

To make an extra instance of it for the interior view, you mentioned a second transformcall for ":COCKPIT", involving the parts corresponding to canopyframe, dashboard, cabinfloor and cabinback.

The Canopyframe is in two sections, left and right, labeled as "collection" and textured. This way the canopy-frame is visible for outside-view. I expect it will not need any parts flipping as it is not a normal component visible only from the oputside. Dashboard, cabinfloor and cabinback are labelled with insignia so that they are visible from the inside of the cockpit only.

So as to provide the section to include in SCASM, with the VCockpit parts, I made a separate AF99 build just with these parts only, to facilitate their identification in the SCASM listing, where there are several lines that are not to be used.

I understand that only the lines that contain the VCockpit parts are to be transferred into the aircraft SCASM listing (near the end), to be called in the second Transformcall line you indicated, just below the call for the Correction of the Virtual Cockpit position.

I can identify the textured dashboard and canopyframe quite easily by their texture names, so I have included an extra plain texture to texture the cabinback and the cabinfloor, to make them identifiable as well. Then I can cut and paste the lines into the main aircraft listing.

Would this be a correct way to go about including the VCockpit parts for the ":Cockpit" section at the end of the listing? Thanks in advance for your comments!

Update:
On second thoughts: As the bleedthroughs are only the fin through the back cabin wall and the engines through cabin floor, perhaps only extra instances of these two parts have to be added, so canopyframe and dashboard additions would be unnecessary, perhaps?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Last edited:
Hello Aleatorylamp,

I believe you will need to re-display the Canopy Frame pieces in your Interior view from V Cockpit.
I believe the Engines bleed through them but since I don't really have a good screenshot, I can't go back and confirm right this moment.

Most of the time, I don't actually rely on the textures to identify the pieces of the model because there is a much easier way.
(Neat little "Secret" here.....)
Note that the pieces of your model are all listed at the top of the SCASM source.
Note also that each pieces lists the number of Vertices and the piece's Offset locations.
The pieces are listed in order of their offset location FROM THE FORWARDMOST point on your model.......

Thus if you go back into AF99 and find that your Cabin Aft Wall has 12 Vertices and is 4 feet forward of your Center of Gravity and that your Nose is 12 feet forward of your CoG, you look for a 12 Vertex piece that is at an 8.00 foot offset.....
Sometimes there are multiple pieces at nearly the same complexity and location.
When that is the case, I put in a

:MAINSTR
Call MysteryPiece
Return

<Rest of the Unmodified Code Here>

...and then recompile the model to see if the MysteryPiece I guessed is the correct one.
Even on my old Pentium 233 MMX, the compiles only take seconds, so finding the correct piece is quick.
I then put a Call or Call32 to the piece in the :COCKPIT section along with a comment as to what this piece actually is.

I only use another AFA assembly to compile pieces that don't actually exist in the real model but only exist in the Virtual Cockpit such as a full flipped Canopy Frame. All the rest of the pieces are direct calls to the code that already exists in the SCASM code for the original AF99 model.

I hope that makes sense. I am not a SCASM expert but this has been working pretty well for me thus far.

- Ivan.
 
Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your comments.
I´ve just looked, and you´re right, the engine also bleeds through the cockpit struts.
I´ll study your post and see if I can follow the instructions for the SCASM procedure
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
It works!

Hello Ivan,

After a few days and several tries I finally understood the steps needed in SCASM to correct the bleedthroughs of the interior cockpit view. By compiling separate AFA builds for the different cockpit parts and looking at their SCASM listings, I managed to identify all parts involved by their number of points and position numbers, including the two half-components that make up the canopy-frame.

Then I wrote in the equivalent of the lines you suggested in your post a few days back, and after 4 or 5 partially successful tries involving a couple of syntax and label numbering errors, and even one that required a Call32 instruction, it finally worked!!!!

I can hardly believe it! It´s tremendous fun when something so abstract and initially seemingly so complicated, finally does work! Thank you very much indeed for your guidance.

So, now I´ve got the Baltimore Mark II corrected, it´s the turn for the other Mark IV and the Mark V.

Rami has informed me that it is possible to edit ones own the uploaded aircraft in the library, (this way I don´t have to bother hiom), and I suppose it just involves re-uploading the corrected aircraft using the same .zip file name so that it automatically replaces the previous one. I´ll add a short comment in the presentation text.

OK, then!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top