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The Staff of SOH
RAZBAM LTV A-7 Corsair II released
- Thread starter Prowler1111
- Start date
sparouty
Charter Member
I agree with you Empeck, but regarding collimation, until now, I never found on the web any explanation on how to make a "collimated" HUD or sight...
If the "focused at infinity" effect is feasable (insert the 2D gauge a couple of meters in front of the windshield), the "HUD graphical elements disapearing from the sight glass when moving the head" is still a mystery for me...
Moreover I have some issues with the refueling probe or canopy elements which hide the HUD data or in the true life I'm sure that the refueling probe doesn't mask it...:isadizzy:
So I can't blame Razbam to not having coded such a feature...
Regards,
Sylvain
Sylvain is on the right track. This is what Cloud9 did for their Phantom, according to the Unofficial F/A-18 Hornet forum at FSDreamTeam.com:
Apparently this is a task for the modeler, not the gauge builder. There would need to be some new parts, but they wouldn't need to be finely modeled, because they would be invisible. The VC model would need to be ADDED TO, but not radically CHANGED.
That being said, I don't know how to answer Sylvain's question.
I've been flying the A-7 for two days. From what I've seen so far, this is a great product except for one thing. It has high-quality visuals, including 3D gauges, animated ordnance, and lots of depth in the systems and FDE. We've already talked about the FDE, but check out the manual, if you haven't already, and read about the different types of map and radar displays. You could build scenery around it, and we will see missions for it. The only thing missing is a collimated HUD.
Razbam, are you open to exploring this for the A-7? If the answer's "no," I'll just drop it; we all know you're working on the next product. But if you are open, I'd like to help, if I can. I bet there are others too, like me, who are excited about the product and want it to be as good as it can.
We are open to any suggestions. But as you said, we are working in our other products, so any collimated hud will be for the future. We will appreciate any help in making the collimated trick. Since there are a lot of aircraft that use not only collimated huds but gunsights too.
I'm thinking that if the gauge could move itself around the panel based on the current eye-point values, then bingo-presto, it would be “focused” to infinity. Only problem with that bright idea is I don't think an XML gauge can “see” eye-point values. I've peeked into the A2A panels, and I don't see a gun sight gauge, so I'm guessing, like others here, that the capability is built into the model itself.
I've been browsing FSDreamTeam forums earlier today, and they've found a way to get viewpoint info directly from memory. SimConnect doesn't allow to read viewpoint modified by TrackIR or by keyboard shortcuts. So this would be second way to make collimated HUD. First one is 2d panel moved away from aircraft. I don't know how to mask it to HUD frames though.
I may be wrong, but I think A2A were first ones who did collimated gunsight for their WW2 fighters. Since then I see non-collimated HUD or gunsight as a big disadvantage. Especially for TrackIR users.
Just curious here
OK, so what happens when you look sideways through a real HUD? Does collimation apply to the real world? When the image is projected on the glass it doesn't know what the viewing angle is. Why would you move your head to the side of the canopy and look through the HUD? Would like to hear from real world fighter pilots. Is collimation realistic?
OK, so what happens when you look sideways through a real HUD? Does collimation apply to the real world? When the image is projected on the glass it doesn't know what the viewing angle is. Why would you move your head to the side of the canopy and look through the HUD? Would like to hear from real world fighter pilots. Is collimation realistic?
[YOUTUBE]Blem3FlkaMc[/YOUTUBE]
Prowler1111
Charter Member 2011
Empeck:
I know your pain, and as much as i would like to make yet another patch, the former experience with the current patch scares me enough not to touch it, even worse given the fact that we´ll change the whole website, which will involve a complete product/customer, accounts migration..by that time, the product will already be in the distributors, and that´s when we lose control around it since:
A: we get sales reports by the end of the month
B: they do have bandwidth costs
For A, there is still a way around, but for B, there is none, since we consider it a FREE patch/update, they definitely DON´T and that will mean charging you for a deserved free patch, we had this experience with the A-4´s, and i don´t want to have it all over again.
So, giving your inputs, i can officially admit a flaw, and that´s the lack of a collimated HUD.
Will there be collimated HUD´s and or gun sights in future products? you bet.
Best regards
Prowler
I know your pain, and as much as i would like to make yet another patch, the former experience with the current patch scares me enough not to touch it, even worse given the fact that we´ll change the whole website, which will involve a complete product/customer, accounts migration..by that time, the product will already be in the distributors, and that´s when we lose control around it since:
A: we get sales reports by the end of the month
B: they do have bandwidth costs
For A, there is still a way around, but for B, there is none, since we consider it a FREE patch/update, they definitely DON´T and that will mean charging you for a deserved free patch, we had this experience with the A-4´s, and i don´t want to have it all over again.
So, giving your inputs, i can officially admit a flaw, and that´s the lack of a collimated HUD.
Will there be collimated HUD´s and or gun sights in future products? you bet.
Best regards
Prowler
SkippyBing
Charter Member
It doesn't need to, the image is focused at infinity so there's effectively no convergence/divergence of the light beams. This means it appears as if the image is miles away and when you move you head it responds as such, I've seen it on a laser sniper scope and it's a bit weird at first, although apparently it makes hitting the target much easier!
Stickshaker
SOH-CM-2023
A ‘simple’ way to collimate, as far as I know, is to project the HUD symbology directly on the outside world. Then the symbology is in the right place by default. The only drawback is that you can see the symbology even if you move your head far outside the cockpit, but why would you want to do that?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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I also believe there is a way to replace a HUD with another one by editing the panel file. Is that perhaps an unofficial possibility here?<o></o>
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Yes JAllan, collimation is realistic. You cannot shoot at another airplane, which may be little more than a dot in the sky, if your pipper dances along with even slight head movements.<o></o>
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Can another developer with experience with collimated HUDs perhaps help? I would be prepared to pay for a collimated HUD as an add-on, rather than keep flying such a beautiful plane in an anachronistic way. In many air forces and navies the HUD is accepted as a primary flight instrument, although the U.S. Air Force for a long tome forbade its pilots to do this (I don’t know what the present USAF rules are in this respect).<o></o>
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Finally, I think that where the product page says that the HUD is represented in detail, it should be added hat it is not collimated. Potential clients who know something about HUDs should be forgiven for assuming that ‘detailed representation´ means, amongst other things, collimated, given that this is the case with most, if not all, high/quality products released nowadays.<o></o>
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> </o>I also believe there is a way to replace a HUD with another one by editing the panel file. Is that perhaps an unofficial possibility here?<o
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> </o>Yes JAllan, collimation is realistic. You cannot shoot at another airplane, which may be little more than a dot in the sky, if your pipper dances along with even slight head movements.<o
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> </o>Can another developer with experience with collimated HUDs perhaps help? I would be prepared to pay for a collimated HUD as an add-on, rather than keep flying such a beautiful plane in an anachronistic way. In many air forces and navies the HUD is accepted as a primary flight instrument, although the U.S. Air Force for a long tome forbade its pilots to do this (I don’t know what the present USAF rules are in this respect).<o
></o><o
> </o>Finally, I think that where the product page says that the HUD is represented in detail, it should be added hat it is not collimated. Potential clients who know something about HUDs should be forgiven for assuming that ‘detailed representation´ means, amongst other things, collimated, given that this is the case with most, if not all, high/quality products released nowadays.<o
></o>Prowler & Zeus - I don't want to be known as the whiner
Oh man you will be for a treat. Specially since we are updating the A-6 for use as a shared cockpit with a pilot and a bombardier with a fully working station.
Stickshaker
SOH-CM-2023
Well said empeck. I agree.
I'm sold. When I can preorder, and how much I have to pay to be a beta tester? :salute:
A ‘simple’ way to collimate, as far as I know, is to project the HUD symbology directly on the outside world. Then the symbology is in the right place by default. The only drawback is that you can see the symbology even if you move your head far outside the cockpit, but why would you want to do that?<o
On the right track here. But I think you need to have something in the VC model -- a flat surface, presumably, which is some some distance ahead of the viewer -- to "map" the gauge onto.
<o
></o>I also believe there is a way to replace a HUD with another one by editing the panel file. Is that perhaps an unofficial possibility here?<o
I looked at this. But the magic of collimation is not in the gauge; it's where you put the gauge in the VC. Put it close to the viewer's eyepoint, and the viewing angles will be large = obviously uncollimated. Put it some distant from the viewer's eyepoint, and the viewing angles will be small = illusion of focused at infinity.
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></o>I too would pay extra for this. But since it's the VC model that needs an extra panel, I'm guessing the add-on would need to come from Razbam. I don't believe it would affect the existing texture sheets; at least, it wouldn't need to.
About collimation and FSX. Yes, to create the illusion of collimation, the HUD or gunsight gauge must be placed in a flat invisible surface in front of the aircraft. That means a change to the cockpit model. That's why Ron said that he is reluctant to make another patch of the A-7 in the foreseeable future.
That makes sense. It also explains why, when moving your head (eye-point) around even in a plane with a “collimated” sight, there still is some detectable parallax movement of the sight – it's as though it's focused, not to infinity, but to 300 feet or so, which evidently is exactly the case! Cool. I still like my “move the gauge as a result of eye-point movement” idea. If it were only possible! The SimConnect module evdidently can read eye-point values, but if it can't detect changes of the eye-point during flight it wouldn't be much use.
Here's how the real one works. It's amazingly simple. If you just reflect an image of a lighted ring and try to use it for a gun sight, it won't be “focused to infinity.” It'll just be a light reflected off a piece of glass. To focus it to infinity, you do it like in the diagram. Like my expert drawing? 
The mirror under the glass forces your eye to always be looking at the same spot, no matter how you move your head. You simply put the thing you want to see, in this case a lighted ring, at the focal point of the mirror. That's it! Amazing! By “tricking” your eyeball into always looking at the same spot, your eyes “unfocus” or go parallel, as they would when looking at something very far away. And since the object is in focus “out there”, it appears to really be “out there”, and it doesn't “move.”
Pictured here is an actual A-7A gun sight. They were going to throw it away so I kept it! HUDs of today are not done precisely this way, but the same trick is performed with lenses inside the HUD unit. The A-7E HUD unit is actually three feet long. The piece of glass is just the top forward end of the thing which weighs about 75 pounds.
The mirror under the glass forces your eye to always be looking at the same spot, no matter how you move your head. You simply put the thing you want to see, in this case a lighted ring, at the focal point of the mirror. That's it! Amazing! By “tricking” your eyeball into always looking at the same spot, your eyes “unfocus” or go parallel, as they would when looking at something very far away. And since the object is in focus “out there”, it appears to really be “out there”, and it doesn't “move.” Pictured here is an actual A-7A gun sight. They were going to throw it away so I kept it! HUDs of today are not done precisely this way, but the same trick is performed with lenses inside the HUD unit. The A-7E HUD unit is actually three feet long. The piece of glass is just the top forward end of the thing which weighs about 75 pounds.
Roadburner440
Charter Member 2010
The A-6's stations will be fully functional!!! Awesome! So that means dropping bombs with it will be a little more realistic than it currently is. Can not wait for the A-6/EA-6B recaps.