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RAZBAM proudly presents: The AV-8B Harrier II Plus for FSX

ZEUS67 said:
I hope this is not too long for you.

I understand that your fascination with the Harrier mostly lies with the ability to do helicopter stuff like hover and vertical take-off and landings. We at RAZBAM strove to bring that aircraft to life in FSX, but unfortunately FSX is a simulation software and an old one at that. There are severe limitations and one of those is that it does not support vectorial thrust. We found a workaround, for us it is a radical way to achieve vectorial thrust. Is it perfect? No, but I believe that it delivers the feel within the limits of FSX.

There is no secret in vectorial thrust, if you google hard and long enough you will get all the equations that make it work in real world aircraft. Unfortunately FSX is not real world and those equations are not enough. Some of the problems you experience is the FSX ceiling hitting your head. FSX does not know what to do with the aircraft when it is on hover, it is not an helicopter and yet it is not moving. It gives stall warnings and yet it keeps in the air. So sometimes it just says WTF and do whatever it thinks works the best. If we tried to control every single aspect of the flight, you would have had to shut down almost everything in FSX to keep processor power. That is unrealistic and not fun, so we decided to sometimes let FSX do its stuff and try to keep them as low as possible. We are near the limit in FSX capacity, perhaps a couple of inches short of it. We got some really strange non documented errors during development.

The best solution would be to create my own physics engine and use it inside FSX, unfortunately that is not possible. To my knowledge only Prepar3D has that ability, but then LM knows the limits of FSX and decided to just bypass them.

Second, the Harrier is a military aircraft. For the military, the ability to hover is not as important as the ability to take-off from short runways with a usable payload, and everybody knows that bombs are heavy. So, no. Real World Harriers mostly do conventional take-offs and semi jet-borne landings (the actual technical term). The vertical stuff is left for shows and demonstrations. This means that if you follow the manual, then you will get the same limitations that the real aircraft has. Both in jet borne and aerodynamic flight.

Don't feel cheated because the aircraft does not do the things you though it should do. It is an amazing aircraft and a joy to fly it. Even its imperfect vectorial thrust gives you a modicum of the feeling a real world Harrier pilot experiences, without the complication that you don't put your well being in peril should something happen.

I hope you enjoy it. Ron, I and everybody who make the RAZBAM team put a lot of hard work and we left something of us in it.
Click to expand...

@Zeus67 : thank you for your answer, for all your work, and for the pleasure we already have with this. But I regret that this conversation is definitely going the wrong way. So let me tell you 3 last things :

1. We don’t know each other, but it’s easy to look around and see my deep respect for your work, and the positive way I try to speak about your Harrier. I love it and yes, you're right, he’s doing well in lot of the things that we, simmers, are wanting. I’m not fascinating by Harrier, I’m passionate by this airplane, like you are, I suppose.

2. I’m not sure you’re right with your idea on how to implement VTOL in FSX. JimJam have said what was needed about this. Even if vertical take-off is seldom, I think most of simmers, even if they don’t use it, want to know that their add-on is consistent with this point. That’s call immersion. And what you say about take off don’t work about landing, especially on decks.

3. But here’s my point, and my message to you. Could you please have a look to the following video ? It’s the first time I make a video and post it on the net. It’s very raw, the conversion is bad, and it's unedited, but the thing I want to show is easy to see :

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/48642418" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen="" mozallowfullscreen="" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> fsx 2012-09-01 09-53-02-06 from wapanomi on Vimeo.



Most of people who will experiment this won’t talk about what you see on 0.45 and after as «a limitation of fsx» or a «new way to give you the feeling of a Harrier». They will call that a bug, and a big one. You can have the same one when diving with no power, speedbrake open. I think that this is related to the things that JimJam and myself are trying to explain to you.


My point is that I talk about this on your support forum two days ago, and receive no serious answer (I still don’t know if someone else has the same problem), but lessons about what a Harrier is, what must be my expectations in FSX, and here, worst, allegations that my posts were commercially oriented to make «razbam bashing».


Even if I can undestrand how disturbing the launch of this Harrier could have be, especially after weeks of labour, I think you and your team are on the wrong way if you can’t consider seriously messages pointing flaws on your bird, and that is very dangerous commercially. And I hope you can understand that’s a friendly message.

Best regards,
 
Yes - mine does that - but i have several other products that do odd things in the stall - this aint unusual
 
Thank you for illustrating my point !

A patch have been made, saying "the brick wall has disappeared". JimJam and I are trying to explain that that's not completely true... And the only answer is "that's normal". If I show you what I think to be part of the problem, you say "it's not unusual" I don't think it will help Razbam to be blinded by compliments...

And, by the way, you're an unlucky man if you've several other products that do that in the stall (and also when they stop diving in the air because the airbrake is open...)

But ok, that's enough for me, I wish you good (horizontal) flights and no stalls...
 
Yes Wapanomi. That's not normal, but that is not me. It is FSX not knowing how to deal with the aircraft at those regimes because of the vtol module. It is one of the unfortunate trade offs that I had to accept. I cannot handle that unless I force you to turn off everything like AI traffic, weather themes, etc. so you can fly the aircraft. I feel that it is a small trade off for enjoying the ride.
 
Well, I should have trusted my gut. I should have listened to what JIMJAM was reporting. Instead I went to bed last night with a serious case of buyers remorse. That money could have went for gas money. :(

I was into what looked like a successful VTOL rolling landing. Got down to 170 kts and dropped the gear, got down to around 140 ish and started advancing the nozzles slowly. Everything was looking beautiful and I thought wow, there isn't a problem here at all -- until I got to 80 kts. That's when all of the sudden the nose pitched up unnaturally and it entered into all kinds of odd ball occilations. And it was at that moment that I knew what everyone was talking about when they said "robotic" behavior.


Sorry RAZBAM, I'm not trying to trash your product. I know how much effort you guys put (and it shows) into this thing, and I don't expect you to do all of that for nothing. Like you say, it's not your fault, it's FSX. But I wish you would have been more forthcoming that the thing doesn't VTOL earlier, not say "that was already fixed". But it was my fault for trying it out, already being pretty sure of what I was going to experience. Oh well.

I will say that it still is visually stunning. Great VC. Since it doesn't VTOL worth a crap, I was willing to just be happy with flying it in full time forward flight, but even that isn't enjoyable, since the thing has a "tick". You get it trimmed up and at cruise speed, and it jumps every once in a while. Make the slightest aileron control input and it jumps off it's level cruise into an uncommanded slight climb, then back down. Almost like you ran over a speed bump. But it happens often, and frequently. It's even happened completely hands off.

And before someone responds again with "well the real plane is hard to fly" -- it would be REAL hard to fly if the actual aircraft did this. More like impossible.

Anyway, not trying to trash RAZBAM, and I understand if someone doesn't like my post. As a paying customer, I just had to get the frustration off my chest a bit. I should have known. I apologize RAZBAM and crew, I know this is your product announcement thread. It is a beautiful exterior model and virtual cockpit. On those two areas I'd place it among the best out there, on par with the VRS Superbug and the Strike Eagles. The flying itself is a downer.
 
airattackimages said:
Well, I should have trusted my gut. I should have listened to what JIMJAM was reporting. Instead I went to bed last night with a serious case of buyers remorse. That money could have went for gas money. :(

I was into what looked like a successful VTOL rolling landing. Got down to 170 kts and dropped the gear, got down to around 140 ish and started advancing the nozzles slowly. Everything was looking beautiful and I thought wow, there isn't a problem here at all -- until I got to 80 kts. That's when all of the sudden the nose pitched up unnaturally and it entered into all kinds of odd ball occilations. And it was at that moment that I knew what everyone was talking about when they said "robotic" behavior.
Click to expand...
The nose pitchs up because now you are not controlling the aircraft with the control surfaces but through reaction jets analogs in the nose, wingtips and tails. The nose up is overcompensation. It takes practice to get rid of it.

VTOL is a tricky procedure, taking off is the easiest part and that takes practices as well. Specially the transition. I've crashed a lot until I mastered it. Landings is another beast altogether and it is worse. I still haven't mastered it yet and I crash 19 out of 20 tries. Do not expect to take off and land vertically from the beginning on this aircraft.

Sorry RAZBAM, I'm not trying to trash your product. I know how much effort you guys put (and it shows) into this thing, and I don't expect you to do all of that for nothing. Like you say, it's not your fault, it's FSX. But I wish you would have been more forthcoming that the thing doesn't VTOL earlier, not say "that was already fixed". But it was my fault for trying it out, already being pretty sure of what I was going to experience. Oh well.

I will say that it still is visually stunning. Great VC. Since it doesn't VTOL worth a crap, I was willing to just be happy with flying it in full time forward flight, but even that isn't enjoyable, since the thing has a "tick". You get it trimmed up and at cruise speed, and it jumps every once in a while. Make the slightest aileron control input and it jumps off it's level cruise into an uncommanded slight climb, then back down. Almost like you ran over a speed bump. But it happens often, and frequently. It's even happened completely hands off.

And before someone responds again with "well the real plane is hard to fly" -- it would be REAL hard to fly if the actual aircraft did this. More like impossible.

Anyway, not trying to trash RAZBAM, and I understand if someone doesn't like my post. As a paying customer, I just had to get the frustration off my chest a bit. I should have known. I apologize RAZBAM and crew, I know this is your product announcement thread. It is a beautiful exterior model and virtual cockpit. On those two areas I'd place it among the best out there, on par with the VRS Superbug and the Strike Eagles. The flying itself is a downer.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry it does not work for you.
 
ZEUS67 said:
The nose pitchs up because now you are not controlling the aircraft with the control surfaces but through reaction jets analogs in the nose, wingtips and tails. The nose up is overcompensation. It takes practice to get rid of it.

VTOL is a tricky procedure, taking off is the easiest part and that takes practices as well. Specially the transition. I've crashed a lot until I mastered it. Landings is another beast altogether and it is worse. I still haven't mastered it yet and I crash 19 out of 20 tries. Do not expect to take off and land vertically from the beginning on this aircraft.


I'm sorry it does not work for you.
Click to expand...
The nose up is occuring with neutral stick... So in order to stop that from happening, I would have to know when it was going to do it, and force the stick forward -- which is just an attempt to hide bad behavior.

On the takeoff transition to forward flight, the video RAZBAM posted on You Tube shows it dropping out of the sky as it transitions to forward flight. If I ever saw an actual Harrier do that, I'd be ready to call the crash crew.
 
airattackimages said:
The nose up is occuring with neutral stick... So in order to stop that from happening, I would have to know when it was going to do it, and force the stick forward -- which is just an attempt to hide bad behavior.

On the takeoff transition to forward flight, the video RAZBAM posted on You Tube shows it dropping out of the sky as it transitions to forward flight. If I ever saw an actual Harrier do that, I'd be ready to call the crash crew.
Click to expand...

1. Again, it requires practice.
2. Next time I'll ask somebody with more practice to do the video. I cheat, I rise high enough and point the nose forward to gain horizontal speed more quickly so I don't fall out of the sky.

Also, I get it. You don't like the aircraft. I can't help you there.
 
To quote a Sea Harrier pilot I know 'You need a BITS* trip after a long weekend'.
Why people think they'll be able to do overnight what real pilots need a six month conversion course to do I'll never know...

*Back In The Saddle, normally done after leave to get back up to speed with flying.
 
SkippyBing said:
Why people think they'll be able to do overnight what real pilots need a six month conversion course to do I'll never know...
Click to expand...

I absolutely second Skippy here! It is what I have tried to say before. It is not a C172!
But in the end, this part of the discussion does not leading us anywhere. If somebody doesn't want the aircraft or doesn't like it, he is not obliged to keep flying it. The rest of us should be going on to support the developers in upgrading the bird. Enough said on this.

Seawing
 
Hey Seaweed, you say " It is what I have tried to say before. It is not a C172! " Just curious,,, Which part of "Its not a 172!" did you have trouble with? LOLOLOL

I could intellectually rip into the rest but I am in a good mood. Also you told us enough on this. Like a boss!
How about post your detailed Harrier procedures for us newbies so we can stop this useless complaining.

Have a good Labor day weekend fellow Outhousers. JimJam:salute:
 
Zeus, I have been waiting to buy this aircraft but decided to hold off a bit so as to see the first comments of users. From your posts and those of Prawler at SOH, prior to the release, I definitely got the impression that your simulation of VTOL would be in the same order of realism as that of the ‘other’ Harrier out there. Now you are pointing at FSX limitations to explain the behaviour of the RAZBAM Harrier. I understand that it takes practice to learn how to fly the aircraft, but it seems that lack of practice is not the only, or main, reason why the plane behaves unexpectedly in some ways. What are the prospects for the not-too-distant future? Are improvements planned to make the plane behave in the same class of realism that other FSX Harrier developers are claiming to offer? Or should we be content with what the RAZBAM Harrier offers presently?
 
A few pointers:

1. I can only speak for the RAZBAM AV-8B Harrier II Plus.
2. I've already said in a lengthy piece the difficulties in making a Harrier for FSX.
3. Yes, it requires practice to fly it appropriately in FSX. Is it in the order of 6 months like the real one? I don't think so, but then that depends on each individual pilot's skill and interest in mastering it.
4. The module is done, period. It has reached the technical limits of what can be done in FSX and still have fun with the aircraft. Trying to improve it will only create problems. We are improving other stuff, like the FDE and gauges, but this is what you will get either in this or future releases regarding the VTOL capabilities.
5. Should you purchase it? Sure! But since I am biased towards my product, I recommend you ask somebody else's advice.

I won't answer anymore questions of this type so don't ask them.
 
Thanks Zeus67 for your comments and all your work on the Harrier. A good comment about VTOL and STOL by whom I consider an expert in the area can be found by looking at entry 7 in a thread found HERE. This thread also mentions some of the other Harriers out there.
 
Work Around

Wapanomi,
Quote: 'people who will experiment this won’t talk about what you see on 0.45' (in the vimeo video). I know exactly what I would do. I would hit 'Y' key ('Slew On') and immediately hit it again ('Slew Off'). I would expect the throttle to go FULL, and if I droped the nose I would MIGHT be able to gain control and fly off, making sure I hit F1 (throttle cut) to best regain control. Try it. Remember where you heard this-and by whom (Napamule).

As a side note: It takes PRACTICE to do VTOL landings. Sort of like landing a helicopter. Practice is THE key-PERIOD! This is one area (SKILL) that you just can't BUY. Get real.
Chuck B
Napamule
 
napamule said:
Wapanomi,
Quote: 'people who will experiment this won’t talk about what you see on 0.45' (in the vimeo video). I know exactly what I would do. I would hit 'Y' key ('Slew On') and immediately hit it again ('Slew Off'). I would expect the throttle to go FULL, and if I droped the nose I would MIGHT be able to gain control and fly off, making sure I hit F1 (throttle cut) to best regain control. Try it. Remember where you heard this-and by whom (Napamule).

As a side note: It takes PRACTICE to do VTOL landings. Sort of like landing a helicopter. Practice is THE key-PERIOD! This is one area (SKILL) that you just can't BUY. Get real.
Chuck B
Napamule
Click to expand...

Thank you very much, but, as a matter of practice, your procedure isn't necessary. Except the very strange effect and shaking, the plane quits the spin in a normal way and remains perfectly flyable after that. You can see that in the video. I mention this because I think it's more realistic to stay in normal flight : going in slew mode to succeed a flight is not my conception of realism, and will give me a skill that I find useless.
 
wapanomi said:
Thank you very much, but, as a matter of practice, your procedure isn't necessary. Except the very strange effect and shaking, the plane quits the spin in a normal way and remains perfectly flyable after that. You can see that in the video. I mention this because I think it's more realistic to stay in normal flight : going in slew mode to succeed a flight is not my conception of realism, and will give me a skill that I find useless.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of the old joke Patent to Docter - "my arm hurts when i do this." Doctor "then dont do it!" :salute:
:wavey:
 
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