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Skysim Mirage 3 out!

shackleton_boy said:
but was or did Atlas aircraft build new airframes? shhhhhhhh....... no one knows! its all still under lock and key and theres been LOADS of guesses lately. issues like the cockpit on the cheeta airframe isnt in the same place as the cockpit on the mirage 3 airframe etc...

its all still very hush hush :rapture:
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This is what I have collected from many sources over the years (well still the short version).

The first Atlas Cheetah D (remanufactured IIID2Z) was delivered to the 89 CFS in 1986. The Mirage IIIEZs were at the same time rebuild by Atlas into the Cheetah E. A single Mirage IIIR2Z, “855”, was rebuilt to Cheetah R standard as a demonstrator for an advanced reconnaissance fighter. The SAAF opted not to order it, using reconnaissance pods for the Cheetah C instead.
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All of the Cheetah models featured a small canard wings on the engine intake, “dog-tooth” wing leading edges, an air to air refueling probe, two new weapon pylons under the air intake, a long dropping nose featuring advanced avionics and indigenous South African developed guided air to air/air to ground weapons. This was taken even further in the Cheetah C; the more powerful Atar 9K50 engine, state of the art avionics including an advanced multi mode radar, a Hands on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) cockpit layout and a one piece frameless windshield. Most of these features, included the Atar 9K50 engine, was later retrofitted to the Cheetah D.
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Thought never officially acknowledged by the SAAF, it is widely believed <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> was involved with providing assistance with aerodynamic refinements and advanced avionics taken from their Kfir fighter. The family ties are even closer as many former Kfir airframes have probably been used for Cheetah conversions (the total number of Cheetah aircraft surpass the total number of former Mirage airframes available for conversion). The best evidence is to compare the Atlas Cheetah D with the IAI Nammer, they looks very much the same. As the Cheetah C shares many aerodynamic features and avionics with the Kfir CE (2000).

But the Cheetah program was much more than simply an Atar 9K50 powered Kfir, it was most of all an indigenous South African development of the basic Mirage III family.
 
Jens-Ole - this is the official version.... theres now been MANY many maaaaaaaany more questions asked that the SAAF isnt willing to awnser. Theres stories that its not mirage 3 airframes at all but actually completely new airframes....
 
shackleton_boy said:
Jens-Ole - this is the official version.... theres now been MANY many maaaaaaaany more questions asked that the SAAF isnt willing to awnser. Theres stories that its not mirage 3 airframes at all but actually completely new airframes....
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Henk, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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Just to make sure; I hope you see this as just a discussion among aviation enthusiasts interested in the Cheetah story as I don’t want to stir up any hard feelings J <o:p></o:p>
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That is actually not the official version either; no one in the SAAF has ever to my knowledge openly admitted a major Israeli connection in the cheetah program. <o:p></o:p>
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What you say can of course be true, but the evidence with comparing the two aircraft makes them almost identical down to the rivet in major fuselage components. And it seems in my eyes very unlikely that Atlas managed to build over 40+ totally new airframes in that short time span. And the cost associated with such a small production run must have been gigantic. <o:p></o:p>
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The first to be rebuilt under the cheetah program was the Cheetah D, which was converted from the Mirage IIIDZ/D2Z aircraft, with a nose similar to the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Kfir CT</st1:address></st1:Street> (and almost identical to the IAI Nammer). But there is a gap between the number of available mirage twin seater aircraft and the total number of Cheetah D’s produced. The same goes for the Cheetah E which was mainly an update for the old Mirage EZ fighters with a nose profile similar to the kfir c7. Both the Cheetah D and E were “first” generation Cheetahs build in the 1984-88 time frame and from where did the small number of additional airframes come from? I cannot see any other answer than South Africa had got their hands on additional Mirage type “donor” airframes from an outside source as it seems unlikely that they had opened a costly local production line with all the necessary jigs, toolings etc just to produce a few new airframes to supplement the old Mirages. If so, the UN arms embargo would make <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> the top candidate for providing spare airframes.Of interest is the fact that <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> was starting to replace their Kfir fighters with the F-16 in the same period.

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Several South African aviation publications from the 1990’s say that the Cheetah C was a indigenously produced Mirage update, all the evidence I have found point in the same direction as with the other Cheetah’s; that IAI was probably involved in some aspects of the program. And the new nose and radome contour of the Cheetah C are resembling strongly the nose of the Kfir CE (2000), including the frameless windscreen, just to mention a few things. With all the advanced avionics which were included in the Cheetah C it is no surprise to see that this model has a “fuselage plug” between the air intakes and the cockpit mount, I believe this is not in any way rule out the possibility of a Kfir airframe as the “donor” source as the airframe was up for a major rebuild of the forward fuselage in any case because of the introduction of a larger modern multi mode radar and associated avionic systems. Having said that it looks like Atlas/Denel took the Mirage III/Kfir CE concept a lot more to the extreme with their own aerodynamic refinements and probably avionics and other systems for the Cheetah C than any other Mirage III related design.
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In the end we can speculate as much as we want, but the full extent of the truth will probably not be known until the Cheetah program is declassified. What we do know is that <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">South Africa</st1:place></st1:country-region> got a very advanced fighter which was the ultimate development of the basic Mirage III design. <o:p></o:p>
 
yea i agree Jens-ole but the SA goverment at the time had to find a few ways to do things that wouldnt normally be done... regardless of cost....as you said one will never know untill those documents get release
 
How sad I am!
I can't run FSX on my computer... too old!
BTW, this is an amazing repaint you did JensOle, congratulations! :applause:
How about a repaint with markings of EC 1/2 "Cigognes" from the french air force? (this is my favorite unit...)
Cheers,

Stéph.
 
gribouil said:
How sad I am!
I can't run FSX on my computer... too old!
BTW, this is an amazing repaint you did JensOle, congratulations! :applause:
How about a repaint with markings of EC 1/2 "Cigognes" from the french air force? (this is my favorite unit...)
Cheers,

Stéph.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words! I have been thinking about some French repaints as well. I'm sure either I or Frank Safranek will paint some.
Several interesting RAAF schemes which I'm also looking into. :typing:
 
I've got the tail art finished for both flights of EC 1/2 "Cigognes" (special thanks to Michel Gerard for getting me started on that). I'll merge it all up while testing the paint kit. A camo one to go along with the "Alsace" bird in the release download and a bare metal one.
:ernae:
 
Hi,

I'm doing some small detail and decal updates for my SAAF repaints, currently including RWR antennas on the R2Z "857". Not "hard" modelled of course, but it looks ok. The pull cord housing has also been retextured.
 
Bought the Mirage today...

....all I can say is: AWESOME!

Been waiting for a decent (i.e. "great") III forever!

Thanks Skysim Team!

Any idea if a two-seater will be coming?

Thanks!

Kent :applause:
 
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