The Ongoing Mystery Aircraft Thread Part Deux.

Moses03 · Oct 31, 2016

Engines are Gnomes, body built by Daimler and flight tested on a beach in the south of England circa 1911-1912.

All clear now? :engel016:

giruXX · Nov 1, 2016

Uff, I got the Halloween monster: White and Thompson No. 1

pomme homme · Nov 1, 2016

Is that the same machine as is known as the 'Grey Angel' and the Thompson-Lanchester No. 1 biplane, designed by F.W.Lanchester - who was much better known and achieved significantly more success in the early days of the British automotive industry, initially with the Lanchester Engine/Car Company and subsequently with Daimler? If it is, I was aware of the machine (I used to live just down the coast from Middleton-on-Sea) but I didn't associate the images posted with the only photograph that I had seen of it.

giruXX · Nov 1, 2016

Yes that’s also called the “Grey Angel”. It is in Peter Lewis: “British Aircraft 1808-1914”

pomme homme · Nov 1, 2016

Ah, I knew that I had something on that - but it's taken a trip into my dusty attic to find the 1984 issue of Sussex Industrial History (the SIAS yearbook), in which there is an article on White & Thompson. Of the 'Grey Angel' it says (sic):

‘The aircraft had a four castoring wheeled pneumatic tyred under-carriage. The fuselage, of ash framing, was clad with light sheet steel (this was built by the Daimler Car Company, Coventry). A biplane tailplane with elevators was fitted to the rear of the fuselage, a sail type rudder plus elevators were mounted on the nose. The wings were clad in 23 swg aluminium. The two rotary Gnome Rhone engines were mounted side by side, crossbelted in case of single engine failure, driving paddle bladed pusher propellors. Mr. Lancaster’s [this should be Lanchester’s] design was for a fast aircraft with high power but due to the excessive weight the machine made only one brief hop when the under-carriage collapsed and the machine turned over. The project was then abandoned.’

To me this suggests that, effectively, Lanchester designed an automobile and then added flying surfaces to it in an endeavour to make it fly. It also appears to demonstrate that whilst he may have been a pioneering automotive engineer, as an aeronautical designer and engineer he left something to be desired. Maybe this is why it was his only aircraft design?<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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Moses03 · Nov 1, 2016

PH- I think Lanchester went back to the automotive world. What is interesting to me about this aeroplane is that some storms had washed away most of the level beach area prior to the first test flight, leaving a lot of ruts and rough surfaces in which to function as an adequate runway, This is why the craft crumbled up initially. Had they a nice long grass or dirt runway, they might have had a successful flight.

Edit: I initially suggested that gX get the nod here but the White-Thompson No 1 plane seems to be another design altogether (despite what some Russian site may suggest).

Pomme Homme gets the :icon29:

on the Thompson-Lanchester No. 1 Biplane "Grey Angel" as that was the answer I was looking for.

giruXX · Nov 1, 2016

Hey guys! What's wrong? I was refering to this book:

Moses03 · Nov 1, 2016

gX, my source (see link) goes into tremendous depth on the subject. Way more than the Putnam but I can see your concern here as it is clearly pictured as such.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/26nlelizkurq39l/Grey Angel Aircraft.pdf?dl=0

Question is, what is this machine? http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft32471.htm

Sorry Mike, will have to defer back to gX. That is the final word. Please press on.

lefty · Nov 1, 2016

Moses03 said:
Question is, what is this machine? http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft32471.htm

I think your answer is on the next page of the Putnam, sir !

pomme homme · Nov 1, 2016

I'm not exactly sure where we stand at present but I'm quite relaxed about allowing giruXX to run with the ball.

pomme homme · Nov 1, 2016

Ian Evans' article 'The White & Thompson/Norman Thompson Flight Company Aircraft Factory in Middleton & Littlehampton (Hubert Williams) : Its Impact on the local Area & people during the Great War & beyond; its importance in early aviation from 1909 to 1919 and as a early 'holiday camp' from 1922' (<cite class="_Rm">https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/idoc.ashx?docid=d1c32f8b..)</cite> contains a useful bibliography, which is as follows:

References:
Vanessa Mills “Getting in the Way of the War Effort” (Interview with Dolly Glue and extract from an article in ‘The Highflyer’); Bognor Observer April 1st 1991. Cuttings File Bognor Regis Local History Society.
S.H. Bostock “Monocoques” A 1915 Example from the R.N.A.S., letter, Flight Magazine, Feb 8th 1945 correspondence p. 158
Flight Magazine, April 10th 1919; article on Harrods selling a Norman Thompson flying boat for Handley Page
Flight Magazine, Jan 15th 1925; listed Norman Thompson under government “Awards for War Inventions”
‘Middleton-on-sea’, A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 5 Part 1: Arundel Rape: South-western part, including Arundel (1997) pp 190-204 URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report aspx?compid=22945&strqery=Allen Date accessed 01 November 2013
Phillip Linberry, Bognor Regis Local History Society Newsletter, No14, p20 onward
Phillip Linberry, Bognor Regis Local History Society Newsletter, No15, p24 onward
Phillip Linberry, Bognor Regis Local History Society Newsletter, No16, p32 onward
Joan Allnutt, ‘The Aeroplane Factory at Middleton’, in G. Male and W. Abbott eds., The Incoming Tide: Studies in the history of Middleton-on-Sea West Sussex (The Felpham and Middleton Local History Workshop [1995]), pp 77-79 (inc. interview with Mrs. Dorothy Glue)
Georgina Male, ‘Reminiscences of the Norman Thompson Flight Company at Littlehampton’ in G. Male and W. Abbott eds., The Incoming Tide: Studies in the history of Middleton-on-Sea West Sussex (The Felpham and Middleton Local History Workshop [1995]), pp81-85 (inc. interview with Mr. Tom Jeffers)
West Sussex Record Office (WSRO): Ray Brooks Collection (WSRO MP 4175 – 4262) and others: MP4244, MP4230 – White and Thompson (and
FW Lanchester) File, MP 2004 An Analysis of the reasons for the development and decline of the Norman Thompson Flight Company and an assessment of its role in the aircraft industry – David J. Ames.

Books:
Goodall, Michael H. The Norman Thompson File (An Air Britain Publication [1995])
H.J.F.Thompson, ‘Littlehampton Through the Wars’ [1978] approx. pp34 -39
P.W. Kingsford ‘F.W. Lanchester (Life of an Engineer)’ (Edward Arnold Ltd [1960])

Interview tape:
Interview with Mr. Tom Jeffers, Cassette tape 60, Littlehampton Museum, dated 28/03/1994

Websites:
Website for “Flight” (Flight Magazine) archive www.flightglobal.com
Flight Magazine from May 1909 to 1919 also available on microfilm at WSRO (still?)
Royal Aeroclub; royalaeroclub.co.uk/history-and-origins.php
Historical timeline for Southdean Sussex Coast Country Club; www.ukholidaycamps.co.uk/Historical_Timeline.html (last visited
01/11/2013)
Graces Guide (Industrial Archaeology): www.gracesguide.co.uk

This suggests that the article was researched in detail before publication. It is noteworthy that he describes the Lanchester designed aertoplane as the Thompson-Lanchester No. 1 biplane ('Grey Angel'). Philip Jarrett's article 'F.W.Lanchester & the Great Divide' (https://www.dropbox.com/s/26nlelizkurq39l/Grey Angel Aircraft.pdf?dl=0) appears to have been researched in similar detail. He attributes the aeroplane in the same manner. Thus even though, over fifty years ago, Peter Lewis attributed to it the title of the White & Thompson No. 1, which seems to have become the received wisdom, I don't think that, necessarily, this is the last word on the subject. Here we have an example of a problem that has beset history down the ages. If something has been received wisdom for long enough, it becomes increasingly difficult to upset that. Maybe that's what we have here? What I'd be interested to know - if anyone has it or has access to it - is what Michael Goodall's book says on the subject.

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Moses03 · Nov 1, 2016

pomme homme said:
I'm not exactly sure where we stand at present but I'm quite relaxed about allowing giruXX to run with the ball.

gX has the board.

Again, apologies for any added confusion. I do not have that Putnam volume.

giruXX · Nov 1, 2016

Thank you Kevin,

that’s a great source! It shows that your previous decision giving the credits to pomme home is correct. The Putnam book appears to be too old in the meantime. :miserable:

Please pomme home, post your next mystery plane! :very_drunk:

giruXX · Nov 1, 2016

Also many thanks to pomme home!

Please continue :bee:

pomme homme · Nov 1, 2016

Here we are, gentlemen. Something ancient which is photographically reproduced in 'pixel lite' fashion!

Moses03 · Nov 2, 2016

Can't resist. I really like the early birds! :encouragement:

This is a Paulhan 1910 Biplane. The distinctive truss gave it away.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1910/1910 - 0860.html

pomme homme · Nov 2, 2016

The 1911 Paulhan-Fabre biplane, according to Jane's. But let's not go down that road - particularly as this aeroplane is French! However before allowing Kevin to take this thread on, might I crave your indulgence by permitting me to add the Jane's comment on this aeroplane:

'The curious biplane designed by M. Fabre and built by M. Paulhan out of the proceeds of the London-Manchester flight. The spars were uncovered girders of flat wood, abnd the wing surface was held on flexible ribs like the trailing edge of a Caudron. The machine was largely held together by wire lashings instead of metal strips, and was a regular nautical job. It was, however, at best only an interesting freak.'

Not surprisingly, after an appraisal of that nature the idea did not catch on. So M. Paulhan just found another designer in order to produce an equally curious successor to it!

Moses03 · Nov 2, 2016

Thanks Mike. Well it is a twin boom pusher!

Moving along, here is a sizeable trimotor and a rare one at that.

giruXX · Nov 2, 2016

It looks somewhat teutonic. :dizzy:

The Daimler G.III, perhaps?

Moses03 · Nov 2, 2016

Not German.

Here is a little more detail.

The Ongoing Mystery Aircraft Thread Part Deux.

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