Unsuccesful conversion

[kelticheart]

Progress report

Are there bombs for the Italian planes? I realizie this is a fighter but is there a weapons pack for them?

Hi John,

although the C.205 could be equipped with bombs, I am not going to prepare a dp with them for this conversion. Better yet, at least not for the Luigi Gorrini memorial pack, because the few fighters that were available for service with the A.N.R. were only employed as pure interceptors, in other words pure fighters. I am not aware of C.205s used for ground attacks, apart from pure testing purposes carried out experimentally.

For the full conversion pack of all MVG12 Macchi C.205 models I'll ask Manuele's opinion.

Conversion update:

Allen did a great job with the undercarriage animation and now the Veltro behaves real well, other than for a obnoxious particular: it blows up when taking off/landing on grass aerodromes with CFS2 flight behaviour set to "Hard" in the Realism control panel. Most notably Gary Burns' BoB airports. The problem does not occur when using paved, flat runways. I suspect the problem sits in the contact points.

I am using the original FS9 contact point section in the aircraft.cfg, even if I had to touch up the static C.o.G. a tad since the aircraft "fell" on the runway upon spawning in F.F.

I tried gradually increasing the dampening effect of the shock absorbers and then decrease it. Didn't work.
I tried excluding contact points from #7 onwards, as all the CFS2 aircraft I saw arrive at #6 only, apart from the additional belly landing c.p.'s for the stockers. No cigar.

The bizarre thing is that the damage sequence, seen externally, starts always from the tailwheel. The fact that it's not fully extended cannot be blamed because it's only an animation problem, yet the tail contact point must be the culprit, somehow.

How can I identify the contact point tied to the tail of the aircraft? I can try raising it a little, but I am only familiar with the first three, tied to the undercarriage. Better yet, is there such thing as a tail c.p.? Should I raise/lower the tailwheel c.p. instead?

Cheers!
KH

 

[UncleTgt]

Pretty sure the Egyptian C205s were used on ground attack missions in '48, but can't confirm if bombs were used.

Re. contact points, this definition lifted from Shessi's Whitley Mk V

[contact_points]
//0 Class (1= wheels, 2= scrape points)
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type

Maybe the 4th value Impact damage threshold is too low for "bumpy" grass...

 

[dvslats]

Allen did a great job with the undercarriage animation and now the Veltro behaves real well, other than for a obnoxious particular: it blows up when taking off/landing on grass aerodromes with CFS2 flight behaviour set to "Hard" in the Realism control panel. Most notably Gary Burns' BoB airports. The problem does not occur when using paved, flat runways. I suspect the problem sits in the contact points.

Cheers!
KH

Hi Kelti,

You are correct about the contact points. I've been changing some params and found the issue. "4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)".
At the moment, this is working in the rough patches.

point.0 = 1, -17.396, 0, -1.2, 1800, 0, 0.43, 90, 0.2, 2, 0.8, 3, 3, 0, 141, 166
point.1 = 1, 0.9441, -4.5798, -5.7, 2000, 1, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 6, 6, 2, 141, 166
point.2 = 1, 0.9628, 4.5798, -5.7, 2000, 2, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 7, 7, 3, 141, 166

These numbers are fairly stout. Some may prefer to decrease them a bit.
It's more of a personal preference and also guessing on what is realistic.

Oh, and one more. Prop Strike.

point.3 = 2, 8.5, 0, -5.2, 333, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4

This is the param of the distance in the vertical from model center line.

As with most adjustments in CFS2, change'm and test'm.

Dv

Edit; Just as UncleTgt wrote.

 

[kelticheart]

Roger that!

Hi Kelti,

You are correct about the contact points. I've been changing some params and found the issue. "4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)".
At the moment, this is working in the rough patches.

point.0 = 1, -17.396, 0, -1.2, 1800, 0, 0.43, 90, 0.2, 2, 0.8, 3, 3, 0, 141, 166
point.1 = 1, 0.9441, -4.5798, -5.7, 2000, 1, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 6, 6, 2, 141, 166
point.2 = 1, 0.9628, 4.5798, -5.7, 2000, 2, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 7, 7, 3, 141, 166

These numbers are fairly stout. Some may prefer to decrease them a bit.
It's more of a personal preference and also guessing on what is realistic.

Oh, and one more. Prop Strike.

point.3 = 2, 8.5, 0, -5.2, 333, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4

This is the param of the distance in the vertical from model center line.

As with most adjustments in CFS2, change'm and test'm.

Dv

Edit; Just as UncleTgt wrote.

Thanks Dvslats!

Duly printing out the above and apply to conversion package! TEAM WORK!

Cheers!
KH

 

[kelticheart]

Pretty sure the Egyptian C205s were used on ground attack missions in '48, but can't confirm if bombs were used.

Re. contact points, this definition lifted from Shessi's Whitley Mk V

[contact_points]
//0 Class (1= wheels, 2= scrape points)
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type

Maybe the 4th value Impact damage threshold is too low for "bumpy" grass...

Thank you too, UncleTgt!

I meant C.205's flown by R.A. first and A.N.R. after. I don't know how the Egyptians used them.

Cheers!
KH

 

[Blood_Hawk23]

Kelti,

Are you using ACM? If not I would suggest you do. It make moving the points so much easier.

I was interested in the Bombs only because of the work on the Italian planes. Also the Pilot I'm Working on for Morton.

 

[mvg3d]

Hi John,
Are You working on an Italian pilot ? I'm interested in Your work because I'm still searching for a good pilot, mine is very old...... ;-)
Here is an unused (at this moment) bmp I prepared, You can see the typical Italian flight dress and equipment (chute, goggles etc.).

 

[Blood_Hawk23]

Technically its not new either. I'm using MW's RAF pilot and Morton has done the textures. We have to get perms for release if anyone else wanted it. As of now its still a W.I.P.

Let me get back to you, cuz I just had an Idea.

 

[dvslats]

Contact Points Ready For Testing

Hi All, Me again..

Hey Blood_Hawk, The first thing I tried was ACM, but the wire frame is HUGE and made that app pretty much useless.
Had to go the old fashioned route.

Spent a little time adjusting the C/P to fit the animations and popping on the runway after loading in the sim Kelti.


[contact_points]
static_pitch = 15.0
static_cg_height = 5.0
tailwheel_lock = 1
max_number_of_points = 12

point.0 = 1, -17.396, 0, -1.005, 1800, 0, 0.43, 90, 0.2, 2, 0.8, 3, 3, 0, 141, 166
point.1 = 1, 0.9441, -4.5798, -6.075, 2000, 1, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 6, 6, 2, 141, 166
point.2 = 1, 0.9628, 4.5798, -6.075, 2000, 2, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 7, 7, 3, 141, 166
point.3 = 2, 8.5, 0, -5.2, 333, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.4 = 2, 8, 0, -2, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.5 = 2, -1, 0, -1.7, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.6 = 2, -17.3, 0, -0.3, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.7 = 2, 1.33, -16.9, -0.66, 800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5
point.8 = 2, 1.33, 16.9, -0.66, 800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6
point.9 = 2, 1.33, -6, -0.66, 1000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5
point.10 = 2, 1.33, 6, -0.66, 1000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6
point.11 = 2, -16.9, 0, 4, 444, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9
gear_system_type=1

While I was there, the flaps were tweaked to cfs2 standards.

[Flaps.0]
type= 1
system_type=4
span-outboard= 0.120
extending-time= 5.0
damaging-speed=172.0
blowout-speed=260.0
flaps-position.0=0.00
flaps-position.1=15.00
flaps-position.2=30.00
flaps-position.3=60.00
lift_scalar=0.00
drag_scalar=0.00
pitch_scalar=0.00

The air file will need "4" flap positions for compatibility.


Tested out ok on my computty. See how they work on yours when you have a chance.

Ok, sack time,
Dv

 

[Blood_Hawk23]

you know you can zoom in and out right. its either Z and X or A and S. I forget which.

 

[mvg3d]

you know you can zoom in and out right. its either Z and X or A and S. I forget which.

Hi John,

The mesh is 1600% bigger than the real scale in order to avoid the mkmdl's "4mm snap", ACM recognize the mesh, but cannot display the parameters and the zoom (with "A" or "S") doesn't work, for ACM the visual model is out of scale, it is indeed, but editing the "azm" and transforming the intermediate files in "bgl", then in "mdl" and editing it with AFCAD we "constrain" FS to show correctly the plane.....

 

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hi John,

The mesh is 1600% bigger than the real scale in order to avoid the mkmdl's "4mm snap", ACM recognize the mesh, but cannot display the parameters and the zoom (with "A" or "S") doesn't work, for ACM the visual model is out of scale, it is indeed, but editing the "azm" and transforming the intermediate files in "bgl", then in "mdl" and editing it with AFCAD we "constrain" FS to show correctly the plane.....

1600%!!! ok never mind.

 

[Wayland]

I see. It is somewhat similar to the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine situation. Thank you for the insight.

Steve

 

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hi BloodHawk,

I made the following Italian bombs and bombing devices for my planes in GMax :

- 50Kgs/100Kgs/250Kgs and 500Kgs Bombs (used in Fiat CR.42, Breda Ba.65, C.R.D.A.Cant.Z.1007bis and C.R.D.A.Cant.Z.506B)
- Submunitions Dispenser (for Breda Ba.65)

I have also the standard Whitehead Italian Torpedo (with tail fins for airborne use) used by all the Italian Torpedo Bombers (by Italianwings, used in Savoia Marchetti SM.79)

Dimensions and shapes are from Regia Aeronautica's original manuals.

If someone is interested.........

Manuele has sent me the Gmax files for his bombs and torpedo.

I must say these are probably the best looking models I've seen for aircraft ordanance. I will have to make some LODs as they are a little high on polys.

The only sad thing is the Submunisions dispencer may not be useable. I can make it as an object easy enough. To have it working in the DP will be a challange due to the limit on hardpoints. Its the same issue I'm up against with my 4 lb incendairies.

It will take a little time to complete. I'm working the next three nights so I won't begin until wednesday. I'll keep you posted.

 

[dvslats]

I don't understand what might be wrong with the tailwheel partially retracted, because the below screenies included in MVG3d's FS9 package show it fully extended, so it mustn't be a bug in the original Gmax code......

Hiya Kelti,

An epiphany... the screenshots you posted are of the C205_H1_MVG.mdl. This is quoted out of the aircraft .cfg for that model.

Almost 27 C.202 "Folgore"s of Italian Cobelligerent Air Force were converted to C.205 "Veltro"'s standard (but without retractable tailwheel) by "Servizio Tecnico Caccia"(Fighter Technical Service) and by "Aeronautica Sannita" (Benevento).This a/c belonged to 21st Gruppo of 51st Stormo Caccia,based at Lecce during April 1944.By Manuele Villa & Italianwings,July 2012.

So you see, there is no animation. Only in suspension.
Here are two screen shots. One from FS9 and the other from CFS2 of the Veltro Late.

The same IMHO. Don't you think?

So in all likeliness, this issue is an issue no more.

Cheerz Stef,
Dave

 

[Shessi]

Well spotted Dave!

Cheers

Shessi

 

[mvg3d]

Hi Friends,
I just sent the "Hybrid" source file to Stefano......

 

[misson]

you know you can zoom in and out right. its either Z and X or A and S. I forget which.

i LEARNED SOMETHING!!!

 

[misson]

Testing the CANT1007 , I see that we have the same problem with contact points, with the same wheels behavior. I wonder if you guys have such problem solved. Is it a contact point setting problem?
thanks
Mario

 

[kelticheart]

WIP update

Hi All, Me again..

Hey Blood_Hawk, The first thing I tried was ACM, but the wire frame is HUGE and made that app pretty much useless.
Had to go the old fashioned route.

Spent a little time adjusting the C/P to fit the animations and popping on the runway after loading in the sim Kelti.


[contact_points]
static_pitch = 15.0
static_cg_height = 5.0
tailwheel_lock = 1
max_number_of_points = 12

point.0 = 1, -17.396, 0, -1.005, 1800, 0, 0.43, 90, 0.2, 2, 0.8, 3, 3, 0, 141, 166
point.1 = 1, 0.9441, -4.5798, -6.075, 2000, 1, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 6, 6, 2, 141, 166
point.2 = 1, 0.9628, 4.5798, -6.075, 2000, 2, 1, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.83, 7, 7, 3, 141, 166
point.3 = 2, 8.5, 0, -5.2, 333, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.4 = 2, 8, 0, -2, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.5 = 2, -1, 0, -1.7, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.6 = 2, -17.3, 0, -0.3, 3000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4
point.7 = 2, 1.33, -16.9, -0.66, 800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5
point.8 = 2, 1.33, 16.9, -0.66, 800, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6
point.9 = 2, 1.33, -6, -0.66, 1000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5
point.10 = 2, 1.33, 6, -0.66, 1000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 6
point.11 = 2, -16.9, 0, 4, 444, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9
gear_system_type=1

While I was there, the flaps were tweaked to cfs2 standards.

[Flaps.0]
type= 1
system_type=4
span-outboard= 0.120
extending-time= 5.0
damaging-speed=172.0
blowout-speed=260.0
flaps-position.0=0.00
flaps-position.1=15.00
flaps-position.2=30.00
flaps-position.3=60.00
lift_scalar=0.00
drag_scalar=0.00
pitch_scalar=0.00

The air file will need "4" flap positions for compatibility.


Tested out ok on my computty. See how they work on yours when you have a chance.

Ok, sack time,
Dv

Thank you very much, DV!

I was wondering if the C.205 contact points needed some further adjustment, since the aircraft sat on the runway with the landing gear wheel half buried in the ground.
As a matter of fact, I was working on that and the static_cg_height but you beat me to it!

I am also happy to report that the bouncing/blow up issue on bumpy terrains was definitely resolved by the Impact Damage Threshold figures you attached before.

Attached below a view of the definitive detail work done over the w-end. Prop disc, gauge-controlled exh effect and a new pilot figure, representing Luigi Gorrini, kindly sent to me by Manuele.

Your post about the tailwheel, confuses me a little. Even if the model pictured in Manuele's screenshots I posted is not the Series 3 Veltro, armed with cowl Breda-Safat machine guns and wing MG151 cannons, a C.205 fully extended tailwheel should look exactly the same in any model, whether it's permanently locked extended or not. But this is not an issue anymore, since we can live with it.
I remember a few years back the same issue was encountered with Corrado La Posta's C.202 Folgore for FS9 conversion. The difference there was that the tailwheel was displayed backward on the ground and the problem was worked around to show it correctly while in flight.
Everybody accepted it, since almost 99% of the display time for our planes in CFS2 is in the air and not on the ground. We have the same case here, where MVG3d's converted C.205 tailwheel looks fine in flight. End of the issue.

To Beepee and Chalachew:

I started working on both 2d and VC panels, starting with the splendid pack sent to me by Beepee. Combined with more MVG3d's CR.42 beautiful original intruments converted by Chalachew, we should have a magnificent set of panels for this bird! Thank you very much for your invaluable contribution!
I keep truckin' on with the conversion! My target is a Christmas Present upload, let's hope to make it!

Cheers!
KH