Virtavia A-4 Skyhawk available

I'd like to know how successful (or not) some of you have been at landing the Virtavia Skyhawk on any of the FSX carriers, or at least the converted Oriskany. My experience has been terrible. Not blaming the airplane, I'm sure it's more likely my lack of skill but I can't maintain a proper approach to save my a**. Too high, too low, too fast, too slow, line-up goes to crap as I approach the ramp. Same results every time: If I touch the deck I bolter (and bounce way the hell up in the air when I do) or I already see I'm not getting aboard (or I'm about to kill myself) and take a wave-off. If you've had the same problems, or have mastered catching a wire please share your experience. This is getting frustrating. :banghead:
 
TARPSBird, I just completed some carrier ops tests and trapped the A-4 fine first time on the Oriskany. Ditto with the AS F-8. You must have crash detections off though. The A-4 had a recent FDE update that made it handle better. No complaints here. What I cannot do is land the AS A-3 on the Oriskany. Just tried the Whale (and the AS RA-5C) on SDB Big E with crash detections "on" and made two clean traps that I was happy with.
 
I have only landed the A-4 on the Forrestal, but it lands fine for me...at least as far as any FSX plane lands fine on the boat.


Some things that may help:

1. Before anything else, you can always cheat a little. The straight in approach requires much less fiddling than the normal day pattern, so you can practice flying the ball a bit before working the pattern.

2. You MUST be trimmed up on speed. Bolters in real life are often as not attributable to not being on speed (calm deck assumed here). The Virtavia A-4 actually holds speed pretty well, so trim it. If every time you look back at the indexer, you are fast or slow you ARE NOT trimmed. That's the hardest thing to learn about the carrier approach and even though FSX is much more forgiving with the effect of eye to hook distance than a real plane I think it is even more prone to bouncing, especially if you make a dive for the deck.

3. If you are flying the pattern, hit those numbers! There is nothing to look at out the window until you are at about the 45, so hawk your gauges. (From memory) 600ft at the 180, 450ft at the 90, 325-375 at the 45. If you fly a good approach turn, on speed, you will wind up rolling out on glideslope with a centered ball and with the proper energy state. It should help your ball flying immensely.

4. Make three part power corrections and scan. If you are low, you must obviously add power to increase your energy state. In most flying regimes, you can crack on a bit of power. Not in a carrier approach. The width of the ball on touchdown is about three feet. It is very sensitive (and increasingly so as you get closer to it). So, if you need to add power:

a. Crack a little power on...

b. Take the exact same amount of power off...

c. Put half the power correction back on.

Remember, you aren't trying to climb here, just get back up on glideslope and resume the same rate of descent, minus a little. If you cob the power on, and leave it there you will get way more of what you wanted, than you wanted. Think of it as adding (or subtracting) a "packet" of power.

What goes along with this is scan. If your left hand is idle on a carrier approach, then you are about to be doing something wrong. Scan meatball, lineup, and AOA, meatball, lineup, and AOA.... If you are high then a little off, a little on, and half back off. Scan. If you are low, a little on, a little off, and half back on. Over and over and over until you hit the deck, go mil and, the boss says:

"Hey, you can go to idle anytime there.....you aren't making the boat go any faster!" ;)

I know what you're thinking: "What if I'm right on speed and on glideslope? Why would I move my left hand then?"

One of the weird things about the ball is that, like any glideslope, the vertical size of the "center" gets smaller as you get closer. So, if you are seeing a centered ball at the start, it will probably not stay there as you continue along, unless you are really, really, (really) lucky. Therefore, you will still probably want to make a small correction to get to the upper side of the centered indication, or what is known as a "cresting ball". This is a ball that is ever so slightly high. With a cresting ball, you know exactly where you are in the center of the ball...at the upper end, and you can work that crest all the way to the deck. This also complies with the old Naval Aviator wisdom that:

"If you can't be good.....be high." ;)

5. Lineup: Remember that the angle of the deck is canted off the centerline of the ship's direction of travel. So, if you flew a perfect straight line starting down the center of the angle, the ship would not be there when you arrived. It would be several yards to your right. Thus the commonly heard:

"Right for lineup."

from the LSO.

Scan lineup every few seconds. Imagine the centerline of the landing area extending right between your legs. As soon as you SENSE (because you won't likely see it if you stare at it) the centerline moving one way or another, put in a quick wingdip as a correction. Don't put a big turn on. Just dip the wing, Level it. and scan again. Also, it will help to roll out at the start with the ship's wake under your left armpit. If you are rolling out in the middle of the wake, you are not on centerline.

As I stated a few pages ago, I personally recommend flying with autorudder on here. It just seems that the Virtavia model is just a tiny bit unresponsive in yaw (personal opinion), without rudder and this is a 1 second wingdip, not a coordinated turn. If you prefer to leave the autorudder off, just put in a quick touch of rudder and take it right back out.

In the end, just like the other facets of the approach, make small discrete corrections, scan to give them time to take effect, and make further corrections from there.

:salute:Deacon
 
Deacon,

Your post was extremely informative. Probably the BEST instruction I've ever read for carrier ops flying. Thanks!

Navy Chief
 
After 1.2 release, i´m having fps loss when turning on radar in search mode (Something from 29/30 to 9/8 when click the button). Switching off, bring FPS to normality. Anyone else seeing this?
 
flaviossa said:
After 1.2 release, i´m having fps loss when turning on radar in search mode (Something from 29/30 to 9/8 when click the button). Switching off, bring FPS to normality. Anyone else seeing this?
Click to expand...

Had that issue with the 1.0 release also. Sucks that I can't use the radar. Funny that with others radars from other designers, I don't get that high of an FPS hit at all.

Jeff
 
Thanks everybody for the responses after I posted my frustration with landing the A-4. Thanks in particular to Deacon211 for that excellent tutorial on carrier landings. What Navy Chief said in his post goes double for me, I greatly appreciate the time you spent putting that together. I have a lot of landing practice to do this week. Tried to get aboard the Oriskany last night with the Vertigo F9F and had a hard time with it too. It's me, not the planes. :icon_lol:
 
flaviossa said:
After 1.2 release, i´m having fps loss when turning on radar in search mode (Something from 29/30 to 9/8 when click the button). Switching off, bring FPS to normality. Anyone else seeing this?
Click to expand...

Hey Flav,

I too had a big frame rate hit even in the 1.0 version of the bird. I remember reading somewhere, perhaps even from Virtavia itself, that the Radar really crunches some numbers, which may cause a pretty big frame rate hit.

Unfortunate, but I think they really tried hard to make the Radar operate as advertised and I can't fault them for loving attention to detail. :)

Deacon
 
TARPSBird said:
Thanks everybody for the responses after I posted my frustration with landing the A-4. Thanks in particular to Deacon211 for that excellent tutorial on carrier landings. What Navy Chief said in his post goes double for me, I greatly appreciate the time you spent putting that together. I have a lot of landing practice to do this week. Tried to get aboard the Oriskany last night with the Vertigo F9F and had a hard time with it too. It's me, not the planes. :icon_lol:
Click to expand...


Hey Tarps,

Don't be too hard on yourself.

First of all, you are missing a BIG piece of the carrier landing puzzle, the LSO. He's part coach, part aerodynamicist, and part psychologist. That's the reason that he is still around even after he tossed away his paddles. An LSO can see what your plane is doing before you can. He can see the sag of your jet or the lack of your exhaust well before you get slow. He can give you a "right for lineup" call to spill off a little energy and correct a slightly high in order to prevent you from yanking a bunch of power and settling low. And he will tear you apart on your first FCLP passes to get your attention then magically tell you how great you are on CQ day. Carrier landings are definitely harder when you are solo.

Secondly, these planes just don't fly exactly like real jets. This isn't a dig on this plane in particular or FSX in general. FSX is great at doing what it was originally designed to do, simulating light civil aircraft. But carrier ops, like space ops, is just a particularly specialized corner of the flight envelope.

Frankly, its nothing short of astounding that modders and add on designers can get as close as they have in replicating flying around a carrier. It's a testament to their hard work and ingenuity and they are successful enough at it that I often find myself transported by the experience...surely the true measure of virtual flight.

So, truly, there will be some aspects of flying around the boat in the sim that will be more difficult than it would be in real life. On the other hand, there are peculiarities of flying that you simply don't need to worry about in the sim that you do in the jet. I'm reluctant to say one is harder than the other. It's just different.

If it makes you feel any better, the most common quote from actual pilots when leaving even a big Level D sim, is often that "it flies like a sim". This gets less true as each new generation of sim ups the ante in graphics (generally still behind FSX) and number crunching. But even these are highly specialized to replicate ONE aircraft and mostly in a fairly specific portion of the envelope.

Anyway, to try to not run on (as I clearly have a tendency to do) anymore than I have, I wouldn't sweat the need for practice in order to get on the boat. In real life, it is one of the most difficult feats in aviation. So, if it is equally as daunting to do in the sim, I'd call that realism...wouldn't you? ;)

Sorry, for running off at the mouth.

Deacon
 
Ah thanks Deacon and Jeff,
I don´t remember if i activated radar search mode in 1.0 version to test it when it was released. Maybe that´s because i only saw the fps problem now. I was going to send a ticket to Virtavia about that, but as you replied, it is a know issue and nothing can be done to get it better. So, i think the workaround is to put radar search mode out of business definitely and enjoy the other features of the plane :salute:
 
I have to echo Deacon's sentiments. Having been a real world commercial pilot flying both the DC-8 and the B767, I can attest to the fact that we have different techniques for dealing with the real world simulators vs flying the real thing.
 
Deacon, thank you again for your additional constructive comments. You are quite right about the LSO's role in getting guys aboard. I've stood ready room phone talker watch on the LSO circuit on several occasions and listened in on the communications.
 
'Deacon211' did a great job explaining how to go about carrier approaches. If you are interested in FCLP (we used to call it MADDLS - Mirror Assisted Dummy Deck Landings) which we carried out at night on a completely blacked out NAS Nowra runway/airfield/any nearby naval buildings or married quarters (to get us to concentrate only on 'Meatball - lineup and airspeed (Optimum Angle of Attack)) then there is an addon only for FSX Accelerator here - where even the LSO talks and gives a debrief (in text) for your approach:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4915.0

"The Beta 0.7.0.2 is here (full package): https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqnldy4hq142mug/vLSO_0702.zip

Go to the forum link for FSDT to learn more about it. I have not used the LSO component at all but have used the FCLP Missions with the generic Hornet (modified to SLUDGE standard). YMMV about what you find when using the Virtavia Skyhawk. Personally I found it very difficult to use the A-4 because of the lack of visibility to the IFLOLS/mirror - which is only artificial due to the nature of how the view is presented in the A-4 in FSX Accel. In real life is it much different and a great view BTW. Any hardware is quickly forgotten with the actual view of the mirror/IFLOLS/FLOLS excellent on approach through the left side front window.

If it is all very new then perhaps using the excellent Dino Catteneo Goshawk in the FCLP Missions will be a good start - with a good forward view. Then you can wrestle with the A-4. Dino's FREE T-45C here: BOEING T-45C GOSHAWK | Platform: FSX:A | Latest version:2.40 _ Released on: March 6th 2013
DOWNLOAD from Google Drive : https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1VJtKJlye7FYXF6TTNCNExCaG8/edit?usp=sharing

Here is the same chap 'fsxnpnavypilot/Paddles' with Missions: http://vlso.blogspot.com.au/

At that place (on right side) are the latest missions for FCLP (they are fun indeed): https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3pFCe8B4_FGSmZEN25Ob2JSUzQ/edit?usp=sharing

I was able to test the first iteration of the FSX Accel FCLP Missions and I saw them being improved a great deal by 'fsxnpnavypilot' (now also called 'Paddles' on FSDT forum) who went on to produce FCLP Missions VOL.2 and now the latest as mentioned above (with vLSO support) VOL.3 (which I have not tried yet). If the LSO calls bug you then turn off sound and just concentrate on the day missions and when possible graduate to DUSK as seen in this old SLUDGE Hornet video flown as shown solely by the HUD view seen with Vol.1 mission 4 (I think?). Anyway if that is OK you can move onto the NIGHT mission 5 as shown also:

FSX Sludge Hornet Mission 4 NOLF Coupeville TEST (2.5 years ago so must be Vol.1 test)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptsozFhUJ98
&
FSX Sludge Hornet Mission 5 NOLF Coupeville TEST (flown entirely as shown - both - this one very difficult with only this HUD view for illustration purposes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjFSB88_aPw
_________________

Because Utube (or really Sbend) mangles the quality of any high quality video uploads - to see the best quality (within reason) there is this version of the OLD Mission 5 FCLP where the LSO gives calls (which in this test phase were incorrect WaveOffs) etc. At 'SpazSinbad' SkyDrive page there is this reasonable quality version where the HUD details can be seen with clarity. .WMV video in the 'Documents & Videos Various' Folder. .WMV name is "Mission5gotowhoaFRAPSavi.wmv" 64Mb.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd...#cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6!116

There is a combined video there also (Mission 4 & 5) "Mission4&5hornetFSXsludgeFCLPdemo.wmv" which at 96Mb is good quality for both 'low Sbend Utube' quality videos in same folder.
&
Also a single reasonable quality so that HUD symbols may be read easily same Mission 4 as in all of the above called "Mission4gotowhoa-aviHD.wmv" at 77Mbs.
 
Stop Bending (Simulated) Metal!

Navy Chief said:
Spazsinbad, that post is excellent! Outstanding information! Thankyou!:salute:

:jump::running::mixedsmi::applause::applause::applause:NC
Click to expand...

Wholeheartedly agree NC, that is a great post Spazsinbad! Those of you "pronging" yourself on the round down or ending up in the spud locker should follow the sage advice of Spazsinbad and practice FCLPs extensively.
 
Thanks Spazsinbad!

That is awesome and exactly what we needed. Landing on the carrier is really a pretty varsity evolution. It is one of the last things you do in the training command and you are very well trained for it. I can't remember how long FCLPs last, but there are several of them and you get quite proficient at them before you ever see anything haze gray and underway.

@Tarpsbird. Outstanding! I saw you were from Norfolk and wondered if you might be a Navy man.

Thank you for your service! :salute:

Deacon
 
'Deacon211' yes FCLP may seem boring for new carrier pilots but they value the time when they see the real deal. I have read various numbers of necessary FCLP sorties (mostly at night with only beginner one or two sorties during day/dusk time to get newbies orientated to the circuit requirements). The FCLP circuit height is usually at day circuit height (not carrier circuit height) to allow for night FCLP safety margin - when flying on instruments part of the time - so that is quite artificial - apart from all the rest of the artificial aspects of FCLP. However what is important is that last half of the turn to finals - flying the correct parameters - to line up on the lit 'carrier deck' centreline on the runway with no other distractions. As shown in the example videos that may not be so easy; but once mastered the day real carrier circuit is a breeze. :)

I recall reading that new Goshawk T-45C pilots may require something in the order of 80 satisfactory FCLP approaches. These are all graded and debriefed by the LSO. Some will include wave offs even if these are not required for that actual approach - to get the pilot to respond to this mandatory call and to see how he responds. No waveoff can be ignored (even though for my testing purposes you will hear a waveoff call right at the start of the night Mission 5 FCLP approach. With the ball in the mirror/FLOLS this was an inaccuracy at the time with the sim parameters). The LSO making calls in FCLP Vol.2 was the start of what became vLSO for the carrier and then vLSO which now includes FCLP. Because it is still in an extended BETA phase it would be good if 'fsxnpnavypilot/Paddles' gets feedback about any issues.

Anyway as I recall our A4Gs had a similar number of MADDLS/FCLP required, with more if the LSO thought they were needed. This FCLP was done immediately before going out to the carrier. IF there was a break between carrier sorties then more FCLP would be done to stay 'in practice'. Experienced pilots were required to demonstrate their skill to the LSO with a minimum number of FCLP sorties; and also were required to 'stay in practice'. IF the LSO thought anyone was not capable of 'bouncing on the boat' (in the RAN FAA we never used the term 'boat' by the way) then they did not go out to the 'ship'. IF more FCLP fixed that issue then fine. Out at the carrier was another story altogether.

We were required to record our MADDLS/FCLP approaches - so I could easily give the number from my logbook. This is an indication of the importance of FCLP.
 
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