As I said folks...I am not encouraging or even slamming anybody. I was just curious as to why people say they lose money on pirating. Since it doesn't take any money to make on your poart (unless you hire somebody to help you) any money you make will be a profit. I am sorry if I offended anybody and I am completely on your side on this one.
Raptor it depends.
Scott uses super high quality recording equipment for visual and sound,.. plus the expense of arranging and going to meet the people/planes in question, ive been about abit and Scotts travelled all over the US.
Then you need a modeller, skinner, coder, contractors for various bits and bobs, website, large domain, online store setup, large webspace for staorage of files, advertsing, electricity bills shoot up as pc's are on, multiple pc's for test beds, windows OS'es, international calls etc etc etc etc.
Its easy to see how the money builds up, esp if your working full time on it.
Scott uses super high quality recording equipment for visual and sound,.. plus the expense of arranging and going to meet the people/planes in question, ive been about abit and Scotts travelled all over the US.
Then you need a modeller, skinner, coder, contractors for various bits and bobs, website, large domain, online store setup, large webspace for staorage of files, advertsing, electricity bills shoot up as pc's are on, multiple pc's for test beds, windows OS'es, international calls etc etc etc etc.
Its easy to see how the money builds up, esp if your working full time on it.
To me it couldn't be anymore simple........they're stealing something that doesn't belong to them. No money?...........I guess the computer and programs a developer uses for his project are free; that's just the begining. It's business 101. Sounds like the logic a pirate would use to justify their criminal/immoral act. Or socialist logic; everything belongs to "the people". What exactly is (Poart)?
...veeeeerrryyy deeeep hole raptor.
An artist gets paid for performing. Be it exhibition fees, song royalties, book royalties...
Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies...
...or even Electronic arts to make loads of copies.
But the answer is the same whichever way you look at it - it is theft. Using a product without permission from the owner/maker/author/artist (that's what you get when you pay for it)
It's the same as buying a car. The raw materials for a Ford may only cost a fraction of the showroom price. You are also paying for the time put into it by the workers on the shop floor, the car sales reps, the managers, the factory cleaners...
Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.
An artist gets paid for performing. Be it exhibition fees, song royalties, book royalties...
Could you imagine how JK Rowling would feel if everyone read photocopies of Harry Potter? It doesn't cost the author any more to make a hundred than just one - true. Nor does it cost Lionheart more to make a thousand copies...
...or even Electronic arts to make loads of copies.
But the answer is the same whichever way you look at it - it is theft. Using a product without permission from the owner/maker/author/artist (that's what you get when you pay for it)
It's the same as buying a car. The raw materials for a Ford may only cost a fraction of the showroom price. You are also paying for the time put into it by the workers on the shop floor, the car sales reps, the managers, the factory cleaners...
Illegal and unauthorised acquisition and use of a product is criminal. Full stop.
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
I know of certain products who have had their products pirated so prolifically, they are seriously considering walking away from the industry and moving into areas that their talents would best be served for monetarily wise. Trust me when I say that every developer is concerned to some degree of pirating.
I myself have spent an insurmountable time trying to shut down some of these sites. There is an ongoing undergrowth of movement from developers to put some of these guys in their places. Hopefully through combined force we can come to some conclusive answers to help stem the tide. Like the drug was, most of these things will never end, however, allowing said people to operate so overtly only serves to make the honest man NOT honest.
I myself have spent an insurmountable time trying to shut down some of these sites. There is an ongoing undergrowth of movement from developers to put some of these guys in their places. Hopefully through combined force we can come to some conclusive answers to help stem the tide. Like the drug was, most of these things will never end, however, allowing said people to operate so overtly only serves to make the honest man NOT honest.
Bjoern
worst developer ever
The whole piracy issue is a generational thing. All of the prople I know who are about my age have more or less "blood" on their hands. No exceptions.
Maybe if you're growing up with access to everything the internet has to offer, you're seeing certain things a bit differently. Everybody else does it, it is relatively easy to get your hands on stuff and you've started doing this at an age where the hole in your wallet coupled with the desire to have this or that new cool bunch of 0s and 1s far outweighed any fear of undesired, legal or moral consequences. And when you start young and always got away with it, your attitude won't change much when you get older.
Yet, this is strikingly similar to other historical disagreements between generations. See rock 'n roll. Older people: "Devil's music; corrupts morality, etc..." Younger people: "Hell yeah! Now where'd I put my Rolling Stones CD?!" Or computers in the 70s and 80s. Older people: "Get away from that screen! Back in my days, I...blahblah...outside....baseball...blah..." Younger people: "Must...kill...dragon...*click* *click* *click*..."
Of course, those two examples don't include the criminal element of e-piracy (unless the " 'Stones" fan and the gamer were drug addicts), but you get the idea.
E-piracy is, as I've mentioned, considered a criminal act in most countries (it's in the "blind spot" in others), yet the estimated ratio between acts of piracy and convictions is ridiculously high (one trial for every brazillion downloads or so). The few trials that are made public and pushed in the media plus the few hundred letters from lawyers suing people in the name of companies is just for the "shock" effect. If e-piracy was *really* taken seriously, you would have about one fourth of every country's population in jail or deepest poverty by now for something the rest of the population doesn't even understand.
Similar applies to this TPB trail. It's more of a show than anything. Chop off the one head of the Hydra that is the easiest to fight. In this case, the site that basically hosts information about where to get e-stuff.
But, just like it's mythical greek conterpart, the e-piracy Hydra has countless heads which can grow anew at will.
To quote an excellent movie: "You can't stop the signal."
My take, now shoot me.
Maybe if you're growing up with access to everything the internet has to offer, you're seeing certain things a bit differently. Everybody else does it, it is relatively easy to get your hands on stuff and you've started doing this at an age where the hole in your wallet coupled with the desire to have this or that new cool bunch of 0s and 1s far outweighed any fear of undesired, legal or moral consequences. And when you start young and always got away with it, your attitude won't change much when you get older.
Yet, this is strikingly similar to other historical disagreements between generations. See rock 'n roll. Older people: "Devil's music; corrupts morality, etc..." Younger people: "Hell yeah! Now where'd I put my Rolling Stones CD?!" Or computers in the 70s and 80s. Older people: "Get away from that screen! Back in my days, I...blahblah...outside....baseball...blah..." Younger people: "Must...kill...dragon...*click* *click* *click*..."
Of course, those two examples don't include the criminal element of e-piracy (unless the " 'Stones" fan and the gamer were drug addicts), but you get the idea.
E-piracy is, as I've mentioned, considered a criminal act in most countries (it's in the "blind spot" in others), yet the estimated ratio between acts of piracy and convictions is ridiculously high (one trial for every brazillion downloads or so). The few trials that are made public and pushed in the media plus the few hundred letters from lawyers suing people in the name of companies is just for the "shock" effect. If e-piracy was *really* taken seriously, you would have about one fourth of every country's population in jail or deepest poverty by now for something the rest of the population doesn't even understand.
Similar applies to this TPB trail. It's more of a show than anything. Chop off the one head of the Hydra that is the easiest to fight. In this case, the site that basically hosts information about where to get e-stuff.
But, just like it's mythical greek conterpart, the e-piracy Hydra has countless heads which can grow anew at will.
To quote an excellent movie: "You can't stop the signal."
My take, now shoot me.
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
Listen, I think we all know that stopping piracy is just simply nothing that is ever going to happen, or at least anytime soon. Most companies accept that. They take their own measures to simply make it harder for regular folks to gain access to their software, leaving only the very adept folks cracking their wares. What gets folks like me in a fitting rage is the websites that advertise overtly on the subject. Many of us know who they are. Names are spoken of individuals that do it. "The Pirate Bay" inherently has the word "Pirate" in its name.
For us as a society to allow by and large operations to continue so overtly makes it that much more of an acceptable practice. Just the same as locking your door doesn't necessarily keep someone from robbing your house, it might the same keep your gardner from having that temptation.
I would prefer if such sites were simply scattered to the wind and force the users underground. I shouldn't be able to search for an FS addon on Google and gets tens of websites offering torrents of that product. It isn't a hard concept. Make it difficult for folks to pirate and less people will do it. I find that a very acceptable solution for the time being. As I said earlier, keep the honest man honest.
The issue many here in the community however have is that because of the rather small development funds that we have for our products, we cannot sustain the price of creating effective anti-piracy software. Normally I don't like nor find a solution provided by a government as a good measure, but the ability for us to persue people who allow such things to proliferate would give us smaller developers the tools to approach and react to such issues in a legitimate manner. Everything takes money, including class action suits. As it is, this is really are only defense against such acts. When you are barely scraping by, this is often hardly a viable solution.
I don't think anyone with a proper working mind would disagree with my statements, at least in large. We can agree that piracy is not a good thing, and we shouldn't condone the act. Many companies are on the verge of simply walking away from this hobby... it would be a shame to see more companies like PSS fall to the pirates. Amazing companies simply taking their toys and playing in another sandbox. Nobody wants that.
For us as a society to allow by and large operations to continue so overtly makes it that much more of an acceptable practice. Just the same as locking your door doesn't necessarily keep someone from robbing your house, it might the same keep your gardner from having that temptation.
I would prefer if such sites were simply scattered to the wind and force the users underground. I shouldn't be able to search for an FS addon on Google and gets tens of websites offering torrents of that product. It isn't a hard concept. Make it difficult for folks to pirate and less people will do it. I find that a very acceptable solution for the time being. As I said earlier, keep the honest man honest.
The issue many here in the community however have is that because of the rather small development funds that we have for our products, we cannot sustain the price of creating effective anti-piracy software. Normally I don't like nor find a solution provided by a government as a good measure, but the ability for us to persue people who allow such things to proliferate would give us smaller developers the tools to approach and react to such issues in a legitimate manner. Everything takes money, including class action suits. As it is, this is really are only defense against such acts. When you are barely scraping by, this is often hardly a viable solution.
I don't think anyone with a proper working mind would disagree with my statements, at least in large. We can agree that piracy is not a good thing, and we shouldn't condone the act. Many companies are on the verge of simply walking away from this hobby... it would be a shame to see more companies like PSS fall to the pirates. Amazing companies simply taking their toys and playing in another sandbox. Nobody wants that.
fsafranek
SOH-CM-2024
You're absolutely right Bjoern about the generations. The generation who worked for everything they had and the instant gratification generation (what letter are we up to now?) who have always had everything at their fingertips.
The honest truth is that anyone who downloads from a pirate site was never going to pay anyway so we (I'm one of you) haven't really lost anything -- we were never going to see it anyway. But if we do this with the intent of making some extra money at the end of the month it has a huge impact on motivation to continue.
As far as money going in, as a painter you need good reference materials. If you don't already have it (been an airplane freak for 40+ years that I'm aware of, the first few don't count, so I already have a lot) and you can't find reliable sources on the Internet, then you have to buy it -- I've always refused to paint make believe or half researched subjects in any payware project I'm paid to do. Unlike a modeler (he also has need for reliable reference materials) you can't use the same purchased reference materials for each project the way you can the development software. Therefore you can't spread the cost out over several projects. Add to this that being on a team means that you have to share a piece of the proceeds. The distributor takes a cut just for using their name and (sometimes) services, the modeler takes a cut, the panel guy takes a cut, the sound guy takes a cut, the effects guy takes a cut, and the texture guy takes a cut. Beginning to see why some companies charge a lot yet?
So the pie gets sliced into some pretty thin pieces for some of the folks involved. It takes a lot of time to do it right and you're never really done. If it doesn't sell well then you end up working for pennies per hour. So when you pour yourself into it and it only sells a couple hundred copies but it gets downloaded from the Torrent sites a few thousand times you feel it like no one else can appreciate.
If not a deep hole then a few thousand hours of public service picking up trash along the roads on their days off.
:ernae:
The honest truth is that anyone who downloads from a pirate site was never going to pay anyway so we (I'm one of you) haven't really lost anything -- we were never going to see it anyway. But if we do this with the intent of making some extra money at the end of the month it has a huge impact on motivation to continue.
As far as money going in, as a painter you need good reference materials. If you don't already have it (been an airplane freak for 40+ years that I'm aware of, the first few don't count, so I already have a lot) and you can't find reliable sources on the Internet, then you have to buy it -- I've always refused to paint make believe or half researched subjects in any payware project I'm paid to do. Unlike a modeler (he also has need for reliable reference materials) you can't use the same purchased reference materials for each project the way you can the development software. Therefore you can't spread the cost out over several projects. Add to this that being on a team means that you have to share a piece of the proceeds. The distributor takes a cut just for using their name and (sometimes) services, the modeler takes a cut, the panel guy takes a cut, the sound guy takes a cut, the effects guy takes a cut, and the texture guy takes a cut. Beginning to see why some companies charge a lot yet?
So the pie gets sliced into some pretty thin pieces for some of the folks involved. It takes a lot of time to do it right and you're never really done. If it doesn't sell well then you end up working for pennies per hour. So when you pour yourself into it and it only sells a couple hundred copies but it gets downloaded from the Torrent sites a few thousand times you feel it like no one else can appreciate.
If not a deep hole then a few thousand hours of public service picking up trash along the roads on their days off.
:ernae:
fsafranek
SOH-CM-2024
part
Hi Raptor,
It is a big investment in both money and time to develop a payware addons for FSX. For example I started working on the textures for the A2A WoP3 P-47 on 24th Aug 2008. I finished working on the textures and paintkit on 3rd Feb 2009. In that time I would frequently work until 2:00AM and at weekends I would frequently work on the textures for approximately 10 hours per day. As an estimate I would say the total amount of hours I worked on the on the P-47 textures would be around 250-300.
Thankfully I have a full time and well paid job so I don't go broke if the P-47D does not sell well. Other members of the A2A team are not so fortunate. They absolutely rely upon the success of each release and higher sales equals more income to pay the bills. If the latest payware release is easily available for download from pirate sites then this is potential for lost sales and therefore lost income.
Try to remember that a payware developer still has to pay wages to their employees for their work. There are texturing artists, 3D artists, sound recording people, gauge developers and of course FM writers to be paid for each payware addon. Sometimes one person does many roles to save on costs. Also the infrastructure such as web sites, servers and so on cost a lot of money. If addons does not sell well then these people will still want paid. It can take many weeks of sales for the developer just to break even on the outlay they have spent on a single addon. So when a development team spends spends thousands of dollars and thousands of combined hours over many months developing a payware addon it is very upsetting to see their work made illegally available for free.
I hope this helps make the anger some payware developers feel clearer.
You won't "get it" until you begin to grasp the relationship between the economic concepts called "Time Value of Money" and "Opportunity Costs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
These are rather advanced concepts, but I'll briefly attempt to draw out the most essential relevant concepts as they relate to the issue of third-party content creation for flightsims. But, please do keep in mind that this represents a gross oversimplification...
Beginning with the concept of "opportunity cost," consider that everyone must make a decision on how to spend their time.
As a 3d modeler and gauge systems programmer, I have to decide whether the best use of my time is to work on "speculation" (that is, invest my time for some potential future income based on sales), or if I should be a wage-slave for some company, thereby earning a steady and predictable paycheck as well as possible other benefits, such as health insurance, employer 401k retirement contributions, et cetera.
As I consider each option, one of the tools I can use is the concept of "time value of money." That is, given an investment of X hours in either scenario, which of the two will ultimately result in higher earnings over a period of time.
With a fixed, wage-slave use of my time, it is quite easy to forecast a reasonably good approximation of my yearly net-net, because a lot of reliable data is available to support such a calculation.
In the case of an independent, future earnings based model, such as I'm currently engaged in, it is far more difficult to calculate such a number. A large part of the "final answer" is predicated on quite a few "guesses" on the values involved.
In short then:
An investment of X hours gives me the opportunity to earn a value of Y dollars over a period of Z time.
Working as a wage-slave the investment of 2000 hours/year at $20/hour + benefits will equal some calculable number net-net disposable income, which for sake of example we'll call $45,000 (after taxes).
Now, I need to guesstimate what the potential net-net income from independent work will yield given the same investment of time over the same one year period. What I have to do in this case is work backwards, assuming that I desire to at least equal the same net-net income, and then calculate the number of sales that will be required to achieve that goal. Obviously, there is a large element of risk involved, since I'm working with so many unknowns!
It's the difference between the two calculations which determines the dollar value of what is termed "opportunity cost." Whether I wish to pay that cost is yet another decision I must make, which is of course always purely subjective, based as it is on such indeterminate notions as whether I enjoy what I do as an independent contractor versus being a wage-slave.
Where all this ties into the topic of "piracy" is that each such act potentially adds to my total "opportunity costs" because it represents an unrealized sale, hence "loss of income."
The reality is that there is also another unknown factor at work here, and that is simply this: does each act of "piracy" really equal a "lost sale?"
I believe an honest answer is no. There are without doubt a large number of such individuals who would not have purchased my product at any price. For the sake of my own internal calculations I'm assuming at best that perhaps five percent of all "pirated" downloads represents an actual "lost sale." Even at that conservative guesstimate, it does represent a large number, all things considered.
Finally, let me provide some "real numbers" as a basis of comparison. For the fiscal year 2008, I've already established the value net-net as a wage-slave. Here this is the actual comparison between what what could-have-been versus what actually transpired:
1) wage-slave = $45,000
2) independent = $14,100
Therefore, my opportunity cost was $30,900
...and people think we do this for the money! :faint:
yes guys i understand that the dev's hate it and a lot of other people do too but here are the facts. Piracy will never stop and there is nothing you can do about it. I think rather than think of all the pirates stealing their products, dev's should think of all the people that do buy their product when they could so easily get it for free. Everybody here has the potential of pirating but we choose not to because we want to support the dev's and do the right thing. The saying "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" come sinto play here. We could all easily go out and pirate the products but we don't and I think dev's should be happy that they have customers. Now i'm going to get yelled at agin but that is how i feel.
H
hinch
Guest
It will be good to see if the website gets stopped. I'm all for a completely free internet but not at the cost of others. While the site itself is not illegal because they are not responsible for content - Google could be accused of the same at a push - the site actively promotes a very illegal habit that is all too easy to do. I'm testing Opera 10 and it has a torrent client included so it's no different to just clicking 'download'.
Then there is the issue of The Pirate Bay being only one of many...
As for torrents being a valid way of getting media around I think I've only ever seen about two websites use the technique to distribute large files and only FS project. The technique has such a bad reputation even if it isn't intended.
Then there is the issue of The Pirate Bay being only one of many...
As for torrents being a valid way of getting media around I think I've only ever seen about two websites use the technique to distribute large files and only FS project. The technique has such a bad reputation even if it isn't intended.
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
I addressed this in my posts. Of course piracy will never end. I don't think anyone believes otherwise. That is just the reality of it.
What strikes me is that we as devs should be thankful that people are paying for it. That to me is a load. That's like saying to a victim "well, at least they didn't rape you after they buglarized your house." Sure, obviously a much harsher example of immorality, but nonetheless the irony is so thick you can swim in it.
Just being "thankful" that people didn't pirate software I have had a hand in a flawed thought. I think the people that pirate should be thankful that we have not prosecuted them, and the people that helped distribute it... yet.
I would like to say personally, that you fine folks need to start sticking up for development teams on your own terms. Many of us are struggling as it is, especially if this is our sole income. Please make an effort to pay for software you want, and encourage those that you know who do not,do the morally correct thing. At the end of the day, even some of the largest and your most favorite developers may not be able to continue supporting products and developing further if we can no longer make a profit. We have families to feed. I don't work two full time jobs for no reason....
fsafranek
SOH-CM-2024
You're absolutely right. All we can do is invest additional time into making it not worth their while to not have paid for copies.
:ernae:
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
For the most part, I find that true. There is still alternative progress to be made by certain forces acting on our behalf out there. If that wasn't true, The Pirate Bay wouldn't be going to court. We can also legally take legal issues into our own hands...
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
You know, I was just thinking. Part of what I find issue with, with a lot of the sites that say "it is not their problem" is them turning a blind eye to the action itself. That is akin to a parent of a bad child who lies cheats and steals and says "I cannot control what he/she does." The point is, it is THEIR service, therefor they should be held legally responsible for the content to a point.
T
tigisfat
Guest
Thank you. Very few people are willing to speak the truth because these threads get out of hand. I can surely understand the frustration of someone who sees something they sell go for free, but that's all it is; frustration. Don't be mistaken; everyone involved stole something, but I believe in the theory that the number of copies pirated X price doesn't equal losses, nor can one adjust pricing to compensate for losees.
Part of being in a society that encourages such free thinking as creating and supporting a MSFS small business is accepting people like the pirate bay people as a fact of life. I strongly believe in personal freedoms; if we punish 'enabling' a crime then where do we stop?