World Update 14: Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia + more

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I can't speak for anyone but myself, but most of my complaints with audio are not with the quality of the sound library itself, but it's implementation. Non seamless loops, lack of attenuation, no soundai package, poorly mixed, missing sounds etc. Sound is one of the most immersive aspects of flying for me, I can look past flaws or inaccuracies with textures or modeling or lack of systems depth if the sound is good but a noticeably poor sound package really pulls me out of the experience.
 
<Soapbox>
Negative comments in and of themselves will rarely get a thread closed. It's the way they're presented. Without naming names (mostly because I don't remember and don't feel like going back through the entire thread and/or several others), here are a few generic examples of things that will eventually get a thread closed:

Saying something is crap, especially without offering a way to correct it.
Demanding A2A/PMDG quality on a model with a much lower price point.
Personal attacks.
Airing out dirty laundry in public.

And one thing that is always welcome - constructive criticism, especially if you've already identified a potential fix.

A few things to think about...
Should I really expect 4K ultra-detailed textures, jillion-polygon parts in the far back of the cabin, and a flushing toilet in the lav on a model that's only $9.99?
Before bashing the sounds, have you ever heard the real plane in-person and up-close? Hint - YouTube does NOT count.
Before you say the flight dynamics are off, have you flown one? Yes, I know there are pilots here, and their opinions DO count when they have stick time in the same type. But an arm-chair pilot doesn't get to say something's not "believable" about an addon developed by a team led by someone that actually owns and flies the type they're offering, of have recruited actual pilots that have flown them.

Now... With all that said, if a developer makes a claim that doesn't hold up in the release, then you do have a right to bring it up. But remember - keep it constructive, and if at all possible, propose a way to fix the issue. A missed claim still doesn't give you the right to toss manners and courtesy out the window.
</Soapbox>
 
Sound can definitely add to immersion, and obvious issues like noticeable loops can be distracting and annoying.

That said, quality of sound that doesn't have technical issues is highly subjective, and there are lots of folks who complain when the sound package is indeed fine if you're not looking specifically for things to complain about online.

For example. I saw someone complaining about the sounds on the OrbX Blackwing being totally wrong -- sounds that Orbx recorded on a real plane with the assistance of the manufacturer. People who complain about using stock sounds even if the real plane has the same engine and configuration. People who complain about excellent sounds because they're able to detect they're not using WWise with the "open the window" test. Etc.

Anyway, it's just wonderful that the Ae-45 sounds turned out to be among the best out there, given all the discussion above. Perhaps devs do listen to feedback that's presented without rudeness and antagonism.

Jmig, DCS planes are amazing. But if we had DCS levels of detail/systems/etc, we'd still only 12 planes available for MSFS. Also, half my DCS fleet is gathering dust because of the time investment to learn that level of system detail for every plane. I'm good with a few study-level planes and let the rest be accessible quickly, please!

Tom Clayton, well-said. I'd say they should make you the moderator, but you already are.
 
My tuppence worth - based on my own experience over the years, I agree with much that SeanTK said. Not liking something shouldn't be dismissed as 'hate' or toxicity; there's not much point in having a forum if people can't express the full range of opinions.

On the flip side of the coin, I'm enjoying the DC-3 in MSFS. Polished up by the Duckworks mod, it is the first AH release I've really liked. Clearly a lot of work went into it. Same goes for the Trimotor, especially with the new modified nose. I got it while it was free, not thinking it would get much use ( a bit too vintage for me ) but after a few flights, it's really grabbed me.

As for sounds, they tend to be a bit down my list of priorities. I don't really need 'sound cones' and such when I'm panning round the exterior. Little things like volume changes with open windows are very nice, but broadly speaking, as long as a Liberator doesn't sound like a Cessna, I'm happy. That said, the sound set for the DC-3 is excellent.
 
Ok, I said I'd bow out of this discussion, but having kicked this thing off I feel maybe I should clarify what my point was.

I was merely asking that members get a little perspective when giving opinions on addons, particularly when their comments have the capacity to effect people's livelihoods. Yes those developers, for the most part are professionals and with that comes a certain level of accountability but at the same time I believe building those model's is a passion and trivial negative comments must hurt, and if it was only about the revenue stream there are far more profitable opportunity's in the wider gaming industry.

I wasn't jumping to the defence of any one developer in particular, over the years I've enjoyed products from AH, Justflight, Milviz, A2A the list could go on and on.

It is noticeable to me that many developers are now absent form this forum, Martin from Justflight springs to mind and I wonder why, is it just because with the way the flight sim market has gone it's no longer worthwhile talking to us or is there another reason?
 
IanHenry said:
It is noticeable to me that many developers are now absent form this forum, Martin from Justflight springs to mind and I wonder why, is it just because with the way the flight sim market has gone it's no longer worthwhile talking to us or is there another reason?
Click to expand...

If it's anything like my reasons, it's the minority spoiling it for the majority, as it ever was in any hobby or industry really. Developers don't need to be everywhere any more, the FS audience is now large enough to supply us with custom and we don't have to reach out across social media for it - the in-game Marketplace has seen to that.

Remaining only within our own social media channels such as YouTube, Discord and Facebook allows us to shut out rude, condescending or troublesome commentators, as well as those who treat anybody who doesn't use / build the same kinds of aircraft that they want as some kind of idiot, and focus on what the audience that we build for wants. I can tell you personally that cutting off all other social media channels has been the best thing that I've ever done, and I'm afraid that Sim Outhouse will likely go the same way, even though I like talking to most of you - I can get the same communication on my own channels these days.

The only reason I'm here typing this now is because my company, DC Designs, is so successful that recently I've been able to retire at the age of 50 and have a lot more time on my hands. The rivet-counters can pop that in their pipe and smoke it :)
 
DC1973 said:
The only reason I'm here typing this now is because my company, DC Designs, is so successful that recently I've been able to retire at the age of 50 and have a lot more time on my hands. The rivet-counters can pop that in their pipe and smoke it :)
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Thats awesome Dean, congratulations, its great you could turn something you love doing into a profession.
 
DennyA said:
...
Jmig, DCS planes are amazing. But if we had DCS levels of detail/systems/etc, we'd still only 12 planes available for MSFS. Also, half my DCS fleet is gathering dust because of the time investment to learn that level of system detail for every plane. I'm good with a few study-level planes and let the rest be accessible quickly, please! ...
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I fully agree. The only reason I brought up DCS is that if a MSFS developer is expecting me to pay DCS prices, I expect DCS quality. DCS, with a couple exceptions, are combat aircraft. Weapons systems are complex and require a lot of study. I went through a six-month program learning to fly the F-4. That was eight hours a day focusing on one airplane. MSFS aircraft must be simpler.

The closest I have seen in the FXS/P3D/MSFS world were the Milviz F-15 & F-16 models I helped beta test. These models were never released to the FXS/P3D/MSFS world. They were for military use only. They were very close to the DCS models and used VRS TackPack for weapons. I don’t expect to see anything like them in MSFS for a long time, if ever.

That is why I tend to fly GA aircraft in MSFS and combat fighters in DCS.
 
I'd like to see the hard evidence that a few compaints are killing sales of products to the point that developers are going out of business. Carenado has been building aircraft for many years now with lots of complaints about their flight models. Yet, they continue to offer some very nice eye candy and fun flyers. Same for AH and Just Flight too. Even Captain Sim with all of the really bad press lately is still around. And we have seen new develpers like Got Friends enter the market with very interesting aircraft with compelling flight models. MSFS has a huge player base now compared to FSX. Xbox use has got to be a big gateway for sales. So I really don't belive that developer's are dieing because of a minority of poor reviews.
 
More payware aircraft developers than ever (and this list isn't complete) - I haven't heard about any of them going out of business:

- A1R Design Bureau
- A2A Simulations
- Aeroplane Heaven
- Aerosoft
- Ant's Airplanes
- AT Simulations
- Azurpoly
- Bear Studios
- Big Radials
- Big Tires Studios
- Blackbird Simulations
- Blackbox Simulations
- Bluemesh
- BRsim Designs
- Carenado
- CowanSim
- DC Designs
- Flight Replicas
- FlyingIron Simulations
- Flyinside
- Flysimware
- HCG Digital Arts
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Indiafoxtecho
- Inibuilds
- Iris Simulations
- Just Flight
- Got Friends
- Lionheart Creations
- Mario Noriega Designs
- Nemeth Designs
- Oliver Moser
- PMDG
- Rara-Avis Sims
- RealPhysics
- Redwing
- Sim Skunk Works
- Simwork Studios
- Swissmilsim
- Taog's Hangar
- Top Mach Studios
- Wing42

And some really excellent MSFS-native freeware-released aircraft by (examples of the work done by each of these individuals or groups gets quite a bit of use in my sim):

- Dave Garwood
- Deejing
- Got Friends
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Radek Koterbski
- Rara-Avis Sims
- Rotorsimpilot
- Sergey Golosov
- Shepbur
- Technotech
- Tyler Gladman
- Top Mach Studios
- VrilleAPlat
 
Bomber_12th said:
More payware aircraft developers than ever (and this list isn't complete) - I haven't heard about any of them going out of business:

- A1R Design Bureau
- A2A Simulations
- Aeroplane Heaven
- Aerosoft
- Ant's Airplanes
- AT Simulations
- Azurpoly
- Bear Studios
- Big Radials
- Big Tires Studios
- Blackbird Simulations
- Blackbox Simulations
- Bluemesh
- BRsim Designs
- Carenado
- CowanSim
- DC Designs
- Flight Replicas
- FlyingIron Simulations
- Flyinside
- Flysimware
- HCG Digital Arts
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Indiafoxtecho
- Inibuilds
- Iris Simulations
- Just Flight
- Got Friends
- Lionheart Creations
- Mario Noriega Designs
- Nemeth Designs
- Oliver Moser
- PMDG
- Rara-Avis Sims
- RealPhysics
- Redwing
- Sim Skunk Works
- Simwork Studios
- Swissmilsim
- Taog's Hangar
- Top Mach Studios
- Wing42

And some really excellent MSFS-native freeware-released aircraft by (examples of the work done by each of these individuals or groups gets quite a bit of use in my sim):

- Dave Garwood
- Deejing
- Got Friends
- HypePerformanceGroup
- Radek Koterbski
- Rara-Avis Sims
- Rotorsimpilot
- Sergey Golosov
- Shepbur
- Technotech
- Tyler Gladman
- Top Mach Studios
- VrilleAPlat
Click to expand...


We are in the Golden Age of sim development. The best is yet to come with MSFS 2024.
 
Nobody's saying "don't complain."

What is being asked is:

* Remember there are people behind these products. Talk to them the way you would want someone to talk to you about work they'd like you to do better/differently. I'm not religious, but that "do unto others" thing is really a great rule to live by.

* The existence of a hardcore study level aircraft does not mean that every other aircraft on the market at any price has to match that aircraft as a baseline standard going forward. (Saw someone cite that the "stock aircraft" DC-3 didn't match the PMDG DC-6 that costs as much as MSFS itself as a complaint. It's not reasonable and shows a lack of understanding of the sim audience and the realities of development.)

* There's a tendency with the release of a new product of a dozen or so very active posters on each forum to jump into the plane and find everything they can wrong with it and try to be the first to post the failure of the devs in these areas, completely ignoring the other 97% of the product. Pointing out issues is reasonable, but there are some posters (talking about on the official forums, not here; we're not that bad) where you can read the post histories and you realize their hobby isn't flying flight sim planes, it's flexing how much more discerning and demanding they are than anyone else around them and somehow gaining validation from the attention they get shouting about that. It's sad.

* It's absolutely helpful to point out issues with releases that might make some people upset if they buy the product. It's not really fair to only point those unless they ruin the experience. But in the end, unless you report those directly to the developer as well, you're shouting at the wind. Posting a bug report in a forum isn't a bug report, as devs can't be expected to scrape every thread looking for feedback. Especially given all the noise from rivet counters and standards-bearers.

Anyway, shouting at the wind. The folks who do this are going to be just shout "I paid my $9.99 so I have the right to complain." I have to imagine these are also the folks who are rude to people who work retail and food service because the customer is always right and they don't have to treat employees as people.
 
After re-reading this thread, I think it's time to shut it down. The discussion has more than taken a left turn from the original intent and is now just running in circles - much like a flushing toilet.
 
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