World War II according to Helldiver

[Panther_99FS]

Once again, there are simply far more restored P-51's than P-47's in the air today.

This is because most P-47s were gutted after WW-II and because USAF decided to use the P-51 for Korea (which they would later regret due to it's terrible vulnerability to ground fire) rather than the P-47.

 

[Helldiver]

Well STANSDDS, That the very stuff that I was trying to dispel. You believe everything that's written with no regards for fact.
I merely related what I knew and what I saw from my own personal experience. So you go on and study all you want. Have a good time.
I was trying to set the facts straight while I was still able. You may study it - but I lived it.

 

[MudMarine]

I thought I read opinions not facts....? One thing I've learned after years of speaking to WWII vets is all their facts are diffrent; i.e. tainted by personal experiences. That still doesn't make their personal opinions any less important. I'd have to feel a bit proud if anyone devoted half the time to my historical experiences in the military than they did with studying WWII.

 

[stansdds]

Facts are facts, opinions are opinions, I said what I said and I refuse to go further into a discussion which is looking more and more like a bladder relieving contest.

 

[Planes-11]

Well Guys, like all wars I guess this one too will come to an end soon. Yet I fear no victor will stand up and be counted. I see from the outside looking in. Valid points all round I grant you, but I plead we not get into a deep and heated debate because some of us were there and some of us were not. History has taken care of the facts, and history will no doubt take care of our veterans of the period a little while longer. With this in mind, let us finally find peace with this thread, while we all still share the same air...and breathe easy once again.

Mike

 

[magoo]

I think one issue is that history and historians often try to assemble a broad overview of a given event, or series of events. Based on a broad range of information and sources, the historian may try to create a careful forensic, based on 20/20 hindsight, and a comfortably safe post-event environment. This will often be in deferance to what was experienced by individuals who never had the info, the power, or the safety to really figure out where they were in the big picture, or what was really happening beyond their immediate environment. They were there, moving through the moment, trying to do their job and stay alive.

Earlier I wrote about the recollections of a LC skipper in the USN during WW2. His experiences related to moving combat troops and equipment from ships at sea to the beach, mostly under intense fire.
He never had the time and/or desire to learn all the various Japanese aircraft in the complexities of his duties and daily survival. It didn't matter if it was a Zero, Zeke, or Judy that was trying to Kamikaze onto his boat.

He was economical about it. If it had big red balls on the wings, shoot at it if ya got'em, or hit the deck.

His personal experience seemed broad, all encompassing, and certainly traumatic relavant to the individual. But to the overviewing historian, Leo would have mislabeled aircraft that could not have been operating in a certain place during a certain period, would have the wrong island's names for where the USN was combating at a certain time, etc, etc, etc.

But what he saw, or experienced, and how he relates the story, brings a huge amount of agmentation to the dry documentation of the historians. The man was there, his POV is massively relevant and practical. He was, and is, the human element. Perfect or not.

What he witnessed and experienced was what is was in regard to him and the people around him, as far as he could see.

It doesn't dissagree with this history book or that. It augments an unbelievably vast story that affected millions of individuals all at one moment in time.

Perhaps the words by Helldiver posted above doesn't exactly jive with our current historical forensics of the second world war. His words do however jive with what he was able to see, as far as he could see, and how it's remembered by him today.

It was a massive war spread out over a massive territory, and manifested itself in a manner so totally different ranging from country to country, region to region. It was so complex, we will never totally come to understand it. It was the second WORLD WAR.

With that, any words expressed by those who were actually there....are to me....gold. Increasingly rare, and of merit.

 

[strega13]

there is one thing that some may know about that i would like confirmation of ( sorry if it's a stupid question LOL ) . i have read long time ago that the gunners of the liberators shot down more enemy aircrafts than any other allied type during WWII , even more than P-51s or thunderbolts . can anyone confirm or say if it's BS ?

 

[Henry]

Ya mean there were other aircraft than the mossie?
live an learn :costumes::costumes:
Actually i had a friend who flew P38's
then P47's im just glad
that i had no choice and was born later.
whatever the plane or position one had
its still scary to me
and Honorable to those that flew and crewed
in all aircraft
H

 

[PilatusTurbo]

As usual, Henry puts it exceedingly well.

Usually young guys like myself always yell about how tough we could've been, and how much we would like to have been in it. I would've said the same crap a couple years ago. Now, if I could go back in time and be an invulnerable and invisible observer to WWII, I would simply love to see the a wild history of my race. I would not take pleasure in the death and destruction, but seeing it like those who saw it.

I try to remind myself of exactly what you said, 'Enry. I'm glad I was born later, because it surely was hell (as war tends to be :-|).

I do like to listen to every bit of history from those who were there, as that's what it would've felt like. My late grandfather was in the CBI, and had some great stories to tell. However, he passed when I was 10, and I'm sure he would've loved to tell me great stories.

I always love one hearing one of the things he used to say. If someone was really whining or freakin' out over something silly, he'd raise his voice and say "You ever been shot at!?!?". The whole room adopted a quick silence on the couple of occassions he put that out there. :d :-|

Thanks to all of those who were willing, able, and ready to fight for their time, and the future.

 

[Bjoern]

i have read long time ago that the gunners of the liberators shot down more enemy aircrafts than any other allied type during WWII , even more than P-51s or thunderbolts . can anyone confirm or say if it's BS ?

BS.

No doubt gunners got their fair share of aerial kills, but since there was always a whole bunch of them firing at a target and thus claiming credit for it plus a, I would say more lax approach at confirming victories in the allied airforces, numbers of enemy losses were always too high.
The statistics couldn't be corrected until after the war though, when both sides' records were open for comparisons.

I rather trust claims made by a fighter jock about his number of victories than those of a tailgunner; regardless of side.

 

[Henry]

I try to remind myself of exactly what you said, 'Enry. I'm glad I was born later, because it surely was hell (as war tends to be :-|).

I do like to listen to every bit of history from those who were there, as that's what it would've felt like. My late grandfather was in the CBI, and had some great stories to tell. However, he passed when I was 10, and I'm sure he would've loved to tell me great stories.

I always love one hearing one of the things he used to say. If someone was really whining or freakin' out over something silly, he'd raise his voice and say "You ever been shot at!?!?". The whole room adopted a quick silence on the couple of occassions he put that out there. :d :-|

Thanks to all of those who were willing, able, and ready to fight for their time, and the future.

My grandfather fought in the trenches with his brother Henry in WW1
he never talked about it, after talking to my father
i understood why, there really is no glory
for the simple man, the end result maybe
but thats what a Soldier, Sailor or Air Crew does
its there job to do there best for whoever they are taking orders from
a little off topic but
just my view
I have great admiration for all who served and still serve
from all walks of life
now back on topic
we fly a sim
the most popular planes in a sim
are not necessary the most popular or the most used
in WW2, we have a choice all we want is fun
we dont get orders to tell us what to fly
we fly what we wish
big difference
H

 

[Odie]

Ya mean there were other aircraft than the mossie?
live an learn :costumes::costumes:
Actually i had a friend who flew P38's
then P47's im just glad
that i had no choice and was born later.
whatever the plane or position one had
its still scary to me
and Honorable to those that flew and crewed
in all aircraft
H

Hey, I'm with Henry ! Why no mention of the F-14 Tomcat's contribution to WW2? Oh.......nevermind. :redf:

Seriously tho, my Dad spent 4.5 years in the Pacific island-hopping through the heaviest fighting. As a child I would revel in his tales of hijinks that his platoon buddies did unitl as I grew older, I noticed that he only spoke of the fighting in very veiled references when us kids were around. Often he would host domino playing parties for his friends and I would be allowed to sit-in on them for a time.

More often than not, their war service came up and the combat stories would come out. I felt very privledged to be amongst these men and listened intently to what they related. One man was a survivor of the Bataan death march and had spent years in a Japanese POW camp. My father would often look at me and nod, giving his okay for me to stay and listen.

I often think of these men, in the prime of their youth riding landing craft into beach landings. My stars, and we think we have stressfull lives ! I can't begin to even imagine the stress that these heroes must have felt, landing after landing, fighting for every inch of ground....what we have to cope with these days is nothing when put up againest what they had to deal with. They are correctly called "the Greatest Generation".

I do remember that my Dad said that whilst he was in basic training and once he got to a regular unit, they would fight the Civil War every day amongst themselves (Rebs Vs. Yanks), but when the boots came on and the landing craft ramp came down....there was no doubt that North/South were united in purpose.

 

[Quicksand]

Henry and Odie, I echo your thoughts. One of my great uncles was island-hopping as well, and was horribly wounded on Saipanand at first left for dead, only to be discovered breathing under a pile of bodies. His stories kept me mesmerized as a kid, and continue to inspire me to this day. Told he would never even walk again, he recovered to become a NC Park Ranger, and he hiked over twelve miles a week as he patrolled the watershed in the Smokey Mountains... Hence his nickname--> Smokey.. Hats off to the Greatest Generation....

 

[Wing_Z]

Anyone who’s been in combat will confirm that the experience is filled mostly with tedium and boredom. “Hurry up and wait” most days is the norm. These periods are filled with propaganda, misinformation, rumours, disinformation, and more rumours. Sporadically there are brief interludes of terror, confusion, and dying.
It’s not called the “Fog of War” for nothing.
Those on the ground will have a piece of the experience only. The immediate history will be written by the victors, and it will be many years before historians piece together the “True” story based on in-depth research of all parties’ records.

The machines of war are only ‘Better” if they do the job required, one way or another. Many Inferior-looking contraptions are improvised, often in the spur of the moment, to cater for a particular set of circumstances.
Those not in the know, afterward suck their on their cheeks and shake their heads, and argue about the “Merits” of these creations.
People who were there at the time can often provide the necessary insights.

I think Panther would be right to rename the thread.
It’s one of the most interesting I’ve seen on SOH - thanks for your time Helldiver.

 

[Scratch]

Any time I'm around a WWII vet and they start talking, I shut up and listen. Those guys were my heros growing up. Not just because of the movies I'd seen, but from the ones that I knew in my family and their friends that told me stories about them that they were too modest to tell themselves. They are called the 'Greatest Generation' for a reason. That term doesn't apply for just the people of one country either.

 

[Quicksand]

Amen, Scratch.... Edit: I had members of my family on BOTH sides of the ETO.. One of my great uncles was in the Wehrmacht and was killed at Stalingrad.. One other great uncle landed with the 2d ID on D-Day. I salute ALL of the veterans who served, regardless of flag.

 

[Helldiver]

Well fellows, I had my say. Panther was quite right when he said the thread should have been American airplanes.
I think it was worth while and just possibly I might put a shred of suspicion in those who "study" aircraft and believe any thing that's written.
But anybody that's been involved in something newsworthy and then read about in the papers the next day will find a completely different account from what went on.
People write authorativly about events that happened twenty or thirty years before they were born. The "fog of war" gets pretty thick by that time.
For those who said nice things about me, I thank you.

 

[PRB]

There is a huge and vast difference between A) Reading in the newspapers today about what you experienced yourself yesterday, and B) Reading, over the past fifty years, books and other research materials, about what happened fifty years ago. The historical research, which you dismiss so cavalierly and with such inexplicable contempt, was done by a lot of different people, many of whom were there, as you were. As many other contributors to this thread have related, my father fought in WW-II. He was born in 1924, drafted in 1942, and went to war North Africa in 1943, and died in 2001. After fighting as a lowly grunt army soldier, medic, and cook, during the African and Italian Campaign, he and his unit, the 262nd Station Hospital, Detached Medical Department, was placed on a ship, bound for home. But… When they got to the Panama Canal, they were informed that they were mistakenly placed on the wrong ship. This ship, they were told, was headed for the Philippines, to prepare for the invasion of Japan. Were it not for the end of the War in the Pacific, there’s even odds I wouldn’t even be here today. My appreciation for the men and women of the Greatest Generation is without bounds. My appreciation for historical research is also kind of sort of high up there. I don’t think they’re all a bunch of idiots. The perspective gained by time is sometimes worth the wait, and the “fog of war” is sometimes cleared a bit by the passage of time. Helldiver, like my father, I am proud of your service, and wish you well.

 

[Panther_99FS]

Any time I'm around a WWII vet and they start talking, I shut up and listen. .

Here here! :ernae:

 

[luckydog]

Any time I'm around a WWII vet and they start talking, I shut up and listen. Those guys were my heros growing up. Not just because of the movies I'd seen, but from the ones that I knew in my family and their friends that told me stories about them that they were too modest to tell themselves. They are called the 'Greatest Generation' for a reason. That term doesn't apply for just the people of one country either.

Damn Right !! :ernae::ernae: