Sopwith Chameleon
Proud Junior Member
Yeah, I too can see where I'm not wanted - please take my stuff down & remove it from the Archive
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The Staff of SOH
Attention Developers
- Thread starter Tom Clayton
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Yeah, I too can see where I'm not wanted - please take my stuff down & remove it from the Archive
Reply...
Hey freeware dudes,
I don't want to throw myself into the fire here, but as the librarian, freeware folks who ask to have their stuff pulled kind of hurt all of us, because I am a freeware developer too. To accomplish something like that, especially for SteveB and Sopwith, would take DAYS to pull off, and with four kids, a full career, and a wife, I really can't afford to do this right now. I want to emphasize too that the problem area seems to be relatively narrow in spectrum, so just hang tight and let us sort this out, okay?
Hey freeware dudes,
I don't want to throw myself into the fire here, but as the librarian, freeware folks who ask to have their stuff pulled kind of hurt all of us, because I am a freeware developer too. To accomplish something like that, especially for SteveB and Sopwith, would take DAYS to pull off, and with four kids, a full career, and a wife, I really can't afford to do this right now. I want to emphasize too that the problem area seems to be relatively narrow in spectrum, so just hang tight and let us sort this out, okay?
nigel richards
Charter Member
Gentlemen let's stay focused ...
Okay, so we've all had our stone to grind, but those of you who know this site well enough, also know that genuine grievancies always receive a fair hearing with due actions taken by the right people.
Expressing our opinions openly and responsibly is the only way forward. A lot of teamwork is evolved here, so solving irregularities as a team of mature adults can be the only solution.
And by team, I regard every single SOH member who actively and positively contributes in the forums, as a member of one big team (or family...as you will).
W666 has already cleared much of the fog, and for that Sir I am grateful.
Perhaps the fact that we have the opportunity to speak out, is the healthiest sign yet, that the basic foundations of the 'House' are most definately in order.
These are just trimmings.
Okay, so we've all had our stone to grind, but those of you who know this site well enough, also know that genuine grievancies always receive a fair hearing with due actions taken by the right people.
Expressing our opinions openly and responsibly is the only way forward. A lot of teamwork is evolved here, so solving irregularities as a team of mature adults can be the only solution.
And by team, I regard every single SOH member who actively and positively contributes in the forums, as a member of one big team (or family...as you will).
W666 has already cleared much of the fog, and for that Sir I am grateful.
Perhaps the fact that we have the opportunity to speak out, is the healthiest sign yet, that the basic foundations of the 'House' are most definately in order.
These are just trimmings.
Reply...
Steve,
Thanks, because your work is appreciated by me and many others. We can discuss future work over a virtual six-pack once things calm down a bit.
Steve,
Thanks, because your work is appreciated by me and many others. We can discuss future work over a virtual six-pack once things calm down a bit.
That's on me, and I appologize. But the reason I pulled it is because I realized that I had broken the rules myself by sticking the original thread and copying the top post to the What's New section. As the rules were written as of yesterday (things are still "in flux" behind the scenes), one of the requirements to get a thread stuck is that the poster be the developer that built the addon, or a member of that team. I'm well aware that Cees has quite a bit uploaded here, but the original post was not by Cees, and did not provide a link to download from here, just a link to another website. The link to our own d/l page was my own edit.
Please give us some time to work out the kinks. The last thing we want is to alienate anyone.
SgtT
SOH-CM-2024
I hope I'm not out of line and by no means am I trying to offend anyone.
I'm not a developer just a humble member, after reading all of the post this evening is it possible that there was just a break down of communications? Should there have been a discussion with the members so that we could understand why the admins wanted to go this route. Was there one and I just missed it?
I enjoy this site very much, and support and appreciate all of the hard work that goes into it. I am thankful to all of the contributors who have made my hobby so enjoyable.
I think one of the things that makes SOH so appealing and enjoyable to me are all of the members and the willingness to help each other, in lots of cases regardless if it has to do with FS or not. I've been on other sites where I didn't feel that way.
Maybe I'm too naive and don't know the whole story, I would hate to see something like this tear apart this community.
T.
I'm not a developer just a humble member, after reading all of the post this evening is it possible that there was just a break down of communications? Should there have been a discussion with the members so that we could understand why the admins wanted to go this route. Was there one and I just missed it?
I enjoy this site very much, and support and appreciate all of the hard work that goes into it. I am thankful to all of the contributors who have made my hobby so enjoyable.
I think one of the things that makes SOH so appealing and enjoyable to me are all of the members and the willingness to help each other, in lots of cases regardless if it has to do with FS or not. I've been on other sites where I didn't feel that way.
Maybe I'm too naive and don't know the whole story, I would hate to see something like this tear apart this community.
T.
GarryJSmith
Charter Member
Simplest solution - DON'T HAVE STICKIES AT ALL.
Let every post (within forum etiquette boundaries of course) have its moment in time and allow it to progress from the top to its place in history.
Allowing privileges to a Paying Member seems reasonable - but not when it comes to forums - my understanding of a forum is where people have an opportunity to participate in a community, voice their opinions, share information and discuss things that may be of interest to that community.
Yes there are idiots that post out of context or against forum etiquette, and that is why moderators exist.
Let's not start restricting the forum with rules that give privileges to only people that pay for that privilege - implies that even an idiot/spammer/payware developer that pays has the rights to abuse the systems and always keep their posts at the top of any of the threads. Soon you will have a forum full of PAID patrons flogging something to an ever diminishing patronage.
Disappointed with SOH for this "idea" - defines lack of thought and definitely a lack of consideration to their extensive membership.
How to kill a forum fast - make people pay for privilege posting - insane.
Sorry - but this concept simply goes against the grain and I think many concur - please reconsider.
I for one will not patronize any sites that attempts to generate income by restrictions to forums using a monitory gain process.
Thank you.
Let every post (within forum etiquette boundaries of course) have its moment in time and allow it to progress from the top to its place in history.
Allowing privileges to a Paying Member seems reasonable - but not when it comes to forums - my understanding of a forum is where people have an opportunity to participate in a community, voice their opinions, share information and discuss things that may be of interest to that community.
Yes there are idiots that post out of context or against forum etiquette, and that is why moderators exist.
Let's not start restricting the forum with rules that give privileges to only people that pay for that privilege - implies that even an idiot/spammer/payware developer that pays has the rights to abuse the systems and always keep their posts at the top of any of the threads. Soon you will have a forum full of PAID patrons flogging something to an ever diminishing patronage.
Disappointed with SOH for this "idea" - defines lack of thought and definitely a lack of consideration to their extensive membership.
How to kill a forum fast - make people pay for privilege posting - insane.
Sorry - but this concept simply goes against the grain and I think many concur - please reconsider.
I for one will not patronize any sites that attempts to generate income by restrictions to forums using a monitory gain process.
Thank you.
And now we don't have stickies at all. Doesn't work for me. I thought it was functional to have these so you could acces the hot topics immediately and saw in a blink of an eye what were the new add-ons that had come out. Not anymore. Bad idea.
Cees
Cees
GarryJSmith
Charter Member
Put your thinking cap on mate - what do you do when you have pages of Stickies - not clever when "paid members" can make their posts sticky for whatever reason takes their fancy - lots of spam advertising and potential just junk posts - simply because they can. Then moderators will have to start making rules to try to create rules which will attempt to control input. Then conditional Paid Member access will have to be created. Ultimately, administering it all will become greater than the gain. I forecast that the end result will be that they will ultimately remove this "feature" for paid members.
Generally - a genuine hot topic will remain at the top of the list because there is interest, activity and member participation in that thread - when that eases off then the thread moved down the line into history. It is NOT a hot topic simply because a Paid Member has the privilage of making their post a sticky post.
Regards mate.
Generally - a genuine hot topic will remain at the top of the list because there is interest, activity and member participation in that thread - when that eases off then the thread moved down the line into history. It is NOT a hot topic simply because a Paid Member has the privilage of making their post a sticky post.
Regards mate.
I think the idea of paying members allowed to have stickies is the worst idea, but I don't want to have to read the whole forum to see wether there is an interesting addon or so. Without stickies highlighting just that, one easily can miss that news. Btw: I don't like the expression 'Put your thinking cap on mate.' I think it's pejorative, as if I'm not thinking when I have another opinion than you have.
Cees
Cees
GarryJSmith
Charter Member
Hi Mate, No inuendo or insult were implied - simply suggesting that there is other points of considerations.
The concept I am trying to highlight is that the Stickies by Paying Members has the potential to be seriously abused. Some patrons will be ethical, others will pay for membership simply to push their cause - good, bad or indifferent.
I am a Chartered Member 2012 at SOH but do not intend to utilise the Sticky option even though I release many products throughout the year - sometimes several a week. Posting notices in the general forum allows those that are of interest to prosper for a suitable time and others simply to fade appropriately.
With the new concept of the Paid for Sticky, imagine the possible impact for those that want to market products through this media or want to highlight their opinion, cause, or crusade etc. They simply purchase membership and then have licence to add stickies to their hearts content.
Ultimately it could result in having so many stickies at the head of each thread that we will have to wade through lots of "marketing, canvassing and pushing" to get to the "interesting" stuff, if we can find it. Which therefore defeats the genuine purpose for stickies.
No doubt moderators will try to intercept the "spam" however, with a declared entitlement for Paid Members to use stickies, they are going to be restricted in denying the post or resinding the entitlement. Therefore my thoughts are to have "No Stickies" is better than unlimited "paid for" stickies which will indeed clutter our forum.
If stickies are to exist they should be only authorised/made sticky by people who own/manage the forum who make an assessment, in respect to all of their patrons, on what is worthy of being "highlighted" and what is just general forum entries.
Like you, I think the Sticky concept espoused is something that will do more harm than good for the forum and is a wrong course for SOH to try to generate income.
Regards
Garry
The concept I am trying to highlight is that the Stickies by Paying Members has the potential to be seriously abused. Some patrons will be ethical, others will pay for membership simply to push their cause - good, bad or indifferent.
I am a Chartered Member 2012 at SOH but do not intend to utilise the Sticky option even though I release many products throughout the year - sometimes several a week. Posting notices in the general forum allows those that are of interest to prosper for a suitable time and others simply to fade appropriately.
With the new concept of the Paid for Sticky, imagine the possible impact for those that want to market products through this media or want to highlight their opinion, cause, or crusade etc. They simply purchase membership and then have licence to add stickies to their hearts content.
Ultimately it could result in having so many stickies at the head of each thread that we will have to wade through lots of "marketing, canvassing and pushing" to get to the "interesting" stuff, if we can find it. Which therefore defeats the genuine purpose for stickies.
No doubt moderators will try to intercept the "spam" however, with a declared entitlement for Paid Members to use stickies, they are going to be restricted in denying the post or resinding the entitlement. Therefore my thoughts are to have "No Stickies" is better than unlimited "paid for" stickies which will indeed clutter our forum.
If stickies are to exist they should be only authorised/made sticky by people who own/manage the forum who make an assessment, in respect to all of their patrons, on what is worthy of being "highlighted" and what is just general forum entries.
Like you, I think the Sticky concept espoused is something that will do more harm than good for the forum and is a wrong course for SOH to try to generate income.
Regards
Garry
And if the moderation across the site was consistent then this could have been a runner. But while I think the moderation here on the FS9 forum is done very well, the same cannot be said for other parts of SOH; there are parts of the site which could (arguably) be moderated more effectively and one part of the site where some of the Mods are actually part of the problem imo.
Not a lot I can do about it, seems our voices are not important enough to be listened to (especially if you come from my side of The Pond); so I'm restricting myself to here, have removed references to my Charter Membership and will have to think very hard what to do when the call comes out next year.
The fs9 Forums have not had any probs with stickies until the new half thought through policy impossed on us because of problems on the fsx forums. And payware has pretty much left the building on fs9. As for making it conditional for freeware uploaders too become paid up charter members just too get the right too get there free work noticed by SOH, I consider it a slap in the face too the freeware community which has worked so hard for our hobby and helped promote the SOH over the years.
Steve
Steve
Roger
Senior Administrator
Andy, you are being listened to and I'm from your side of the pond. The problems only exist in the FsX forum and shouldn't apply to this forum but it's not my call. I think decisions about format will be made soon but I honestly don't know what the outcome will be.
Andy, thanks for the vote of confidence, but to be honest, this board almost never needs "moderation" anyway. This one topic has caused more contention than we've had since I became a moderator. That said, the access that we were talking about would not have been for all Charter Members. To get access to the now-dead What's New section you would have to have been a current Charter Member and given (by an admin) membership in the "Developers" member group here. With both of those, you would have only been able to start a new thread in that section. Nobody but staff and above would be able to reply, and we would not have done that. The result would have been nothing but announcements with no replies to worry about.
So for now, threads that announce a new release will be stuck. As before, that thread can be posted by any member that can post here. In the past, freeware releases stayed up until there was no activity for seven straight days, or until it had been up for a reasonably long enough time, like 5-6 weeks. Payware was stuck for seven days period, since it was essentially free advertising. That time was, I believe, just three days in the FSX section since it's so much more active. And I mentioned "New Releases" - that means new scenery and flyable (or driveable) models. Repaints, updates, sales, etc. will stay up or slide down on their own merit. Freeware and Payware (we still have one or two independent FS9 payware dev's left) will be treated equally - stick for seven days. Public beta releases will be taken on a case-by-case basis, since the definition of "Beta" varies so greatly for different developers. The FSX section may vary slightly from this, but it should be pretty much similar.
So for now, threads that announce a new release will be stuck. As before, that thread can be posted by any member that can post here. In the past, freeware releases stayed up until there was no activity for seven straight days, or until it had been up for a reasonably long enough time, like 5-6 weeks. Payware was stuck for seven days period, since it was essentially free advertising. That time was, I believe, just three days in the FSX section since it's so much more active. And I mentioned "New Releases" - that means new scenery and flyable (or driveable) models. Repaints, updates, sales, etc. will stay up or slide down on their own merit. Freeware and Payware (we still have one or two independent FS9 payware dev's left) will be treated equally - stick for seven days. Public beta releases will be taken on a case-by-case basis, since the definition of "Beta" varies so greatly for different developers. The FSX section may vary slightly from this, but it should be pretty much similar.
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