• Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

About developers, beta testing and other things.

Flight-sim may be a hobby, but any payware company's overall goal must be to make money. If the response to criticism is to tell the customer they were expecting too much, then that company has a poor understanding of how the market works.

There are a lot of amazing artists involved with many developers, but it seems there is a real shortage of skilled marketers/businessmen. Developers always seem to pass blame to piracy, customers with unrealistic expectations, or exorbitant development costs. When you try to maintain this producer-centric market, rather than a customer-centric one, don't be surprised when there aren't any customers.
 
Thirty dollars for a model at todays quality really is chump change. Renting a Cessna 152 will cost you about 60 to 70 dollars an hour in the US, and it's going to have a number of flaws (not to mention it's a crapp-@ss 152). Compared to that, these models are a sweet deal, and you can fly them until you go blind. It's amazing how bent out of shape some people get over such a low amount....you'd think they just paid a fortune for something that doesn't work. The majority of these models are awesome peices of work, and I can't believe how cheap they are for the amount of time and effort that goes into them. When the prices start hitting the 80 to 100 dollar amount, then a purchaser really has a foundation to vent their gripes about what they don't like...but at 30 bucks, the crap people pile on devs is ridiculous. Now, I admit, I have had some "what tha heck is this!" moments after buying a model, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Also, there have been some big booboo's in models that were released for sale, but the vendor just about always gets it fixed. I won't buy anymore models that you can't see the external parts of the plane from the VC, but that doesn't mean I can b*tch like a holy terror about it. That's my personal metric, and it may not be valid to anyone else.

I'm not saying that a dev doesn't have a responsibility to try and please the customer base...they absolutely should, but there's a limit, and that limit is a function of price, and price is a function of effort....and from what I can see, the devs haven't priced in their effort yet.
 
Bone said:
I'm not saying that a dev doesn't have a responsibility to try and please the customer base...they absolutely should, but there's a limit, and that limit is a function of price, and price is a function of effort....and from what I can see, the devs haven't priced in their effort yet.
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What amazes me is the effort to please "customers" that some freeware developers go to. At FSDeveloper both Arno Gerretsen and Don Grovestine go to great lengths to work out the bugs in their freeware utilities.

Regards, Mike Mann
 
Francois said:
ROFL !!!! One can hide but one cannot escape ;-)
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Ironic, when I am neither of the former and only the latter. But it seems I am not alone! I was the first to post about this release back in the day. I didn't expect to be let down. Others think I am someone else too. Dont know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, but looking after number one is the most important thing.

So I wait for the patched product when all the bugs are fixed, and then presumably there will be three more customers - and a revised Terms and Conditions page.
 
I just look at the cost of add-ons vs. the cost of base sim, and then what I am getting out of the payware. Simulators are about the only market people are allowed to get away with charging double the price of the base game for an add-on. Probably because the average age/disposable income of flight simmers is greater than most game communities.
 
djscoo said:
I just look at the cost of add-ons vs. the cost of base sim, and then what I am getting out of the payware. Simulators are about the only market people are allowed to get away with charging double the price of the base game for an add-on. Probably because the average age/disposable income of flight simmers is greater than most game communities.
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While we can compare the price of addons to those of the base simulator, this isn't far from a copy of Windows versus say a copy of 3DS Max or the Adobe Master Collection.

I liken the hobby to that of the small scale model locomotives. It is not impossible for people to pay hundreds for a small engine of high quality.
 
The fact of it is that this business has never been regulated. Nobody has ever set an "official" price for anything to do with this hobby. Microsoft sell millions of copies of their product and their price is worked out on that. For the rest of the world, it's just a guess, always has been.
If independents worked on pricing to recover cost and overhead, nobody would ever afford the end product.

This work is to all extents a "donation". $30 just doesn't cover anything other than maybe this month's payments on the graphics and 3D software.

Get one thing crystal clear though, any accountant or banker worth their salt would look at the figures in flightsim development and call for the men in white coats to escort us all off the premises.

My accountant just shakes his head these days having long stopped asking "why?" and gets on with the books on my other business.

I hate to disillusion anybody thinking this is a profitable business or wanting to make a start in it but nobody is making any kind of big dollars out there. Nobody.

And as for freeware, extremely admirable, we have done our fair share too but should it ever be the market's right to demand it?

Certainly not.
 
bazzar said:
The fact of it is that this business has never been regulated. Nobody has ever set an "official" price for anything to do with this hobby. Microsoft sell millions of copies of their product and their price is worked out on that. For the rest of the world, it's just a guess, always has been.
If independents worked on pricing to recover cost and overhead, nobody would ever afford the end product.

This work is to all extents a "donation". $30 just doesn't cover anything other than maybe this month's payments on the graphics and 3D software.

Get one thing crystal clear though, any accountant or banker worth their salt would look at the figures in flightsim development and call for the men in white coats to escort us all off the premises.

My accountant just shakes his head these days having long stopped asking "why?" and gets on with the books on my other business.

I hate to disillusion anybody thinking this is a profitable business or wanting to make a start in it but nobody is making any kind of big dollars out there. Nobody.

And as for freeware, extremely admirable, we have done our fair share too but should it ever be the market's right to demand it?

Certainly not.
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Yes, +1.
 
My freeware is free. It costs me ZERO to produce
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Wrong, it's cost you time that could have been spent doing something more productive. It's known as an opportunity cost, you've lost the opportunity to do something else. Unless you're immortal and have unlimited time.

Say you spent 100 hours total to produce a model (all devs I know this is woefully underestimating it but it's just an example), you've forgone 100 hours that could have been spent working in an all night petrol station for £5 an hour (what's the minimum wage these days?!) so that's £500 you've lost by deciding instead to build a model.
 
SkippyBing said:
Wrong, it's cost you time that could have been spent doing something more productive.
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Taking this attitude why would anyone spend any time with a flight simulator unless they were only training for real world flights? I guess I don't mind doing my non productive hobbies because I value the enjoyment they bring.

Regards, Mike Mann
 
As with everything in life, if something is a hobby then it matters not how much time and money is spent on it...... as long as SWAMBO is in full agreement ! :icon_lol:

But, as has been noted before, since this industry is too small to make a real living in, almost all those that do, or are trying to do, see it still as a partial hobby. And most have another income on the side. The few that don't see this as a hobby, are not really part of the 'community'. Those that DO invariably have 'problems' with marketing and support, just because they all have two hands and one head only. Problems as compared to your regular larger companies employing employees... and lawyers.

Most 'customers' understand these limitations, otherwise there would not be an FS industry ;-)

None of the FS suppliers can compete with the pure hobbyists able to spend limitless time in their creations. Not if they still want to make a living somehow.
 
I guess I don't mind doing my non productive hobbies because I value the enjoyment they bring.
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Which is a perfectly rational choice, you've taken the opportunity to do something you enjoy at the expense of not doing something else. I think Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs comes in here, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that it costs to develop freeware even if you aren't financially out of pocket at the end.
 
This eventually turns into a rather philosophical discussion of why we do anything. Respect, imagined or real, good or bad drives much as does the sense of community, at least for freeware developers. I think the payware folks have to be in it for many of the same reasons. However they share some additional aggrivations and stresses. My very ocassional involvement in such programs generally has not ballanced well the time/effort very well with renumeration. Then there is the issue of getting paid....

The long and short is that I like the community, being involved, and working with good collegues.

One or two hours at my day job (I am a 747 Capt) produces far more income than I ever made from any sim project. So if I work for free, I just consider it cheap entertainment.

But if chicken in the pot is on the line here, remember buying a perhaps pricey, but very high quality item you are supporting an important part of our industry!

Thanks to all of the developers who do really serve us!

T
 
And the really interesting thing about developing is if there isn't anything being built that you want, there isn't anyone stopping you but yourself from learning to make add ons. It's great software for DIY projects. I mean in the sense it's great that you're allowed to do that, as opposed to other software products that don't allow such mods.

Also, as someone who has been involved in payware projects, many times the cost of the product was really meant to cover the cost of research. There was some profit, but no where near enough to live on.

For me, it really is the hobby aspect, that's why I'm involved in this on the development side. Also, on the flying side as well.
 
Philosophical debate or not, you take money for a supplied service or product and the recipient is entitled to regard it as a `business` transaction and expect all the necessary niceties and legalities to be supplied. That is the way the Law works. And you don't change that by apportioning the `level` of business as a yardstick, nor the price paid. It actually makes no difference if its 1 or 1,000 Euros, Dollars or Pounds, sold at a profit or a loss, 1 or 21 million units sold, the vendor HAS entered into a business relationship with the customer. QED.

And if it isn't why bother with EULA's and receipts, and more especially payment in advance? If we are all hobbyists and friends together just playing, then supply the product first, and let the hobbyist decide whether its worth paying for, or not.

Yeah, like that's going to happen!

It's not for the developer or reseller to decide whether they are a business or not. It's for the consumer who pays. The impact the vendor has is how much they decide to charge to make it a profitable venture or not, or whether to offer for sale, or not.

Nothing more.

Developers who want to make this a hobby should choose a different business model. Any registered charities among them?
 
Hey SkippyBing,

SkippyBing said:
Wrong, it's cost you time that could have been spent doing something more productive. It's known as an opportunity cost, you've lost the opportunity to do something else. Unless you're immortal and have unlimited time.
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That's like saying you should sleep less because sleeping in on your day off is an opportunity cost or if you have a Monday to Friday job you should be ashamed of not working on Saturday and Sunday.

Where does the line get drawn? Should a person neglect the family as well and define spending time with the kids, playing outside in the garden, as an opportunity cost?

People should be able to differentiate between hobbies and jobs.

Regards,
Stratobat
 
"I am typing this forum post at 9am on a Saturday morning, wearing my dressing gown and holding a cup of tea"
Well, I'm typing this at 5 AM, wearing my skivvies and clutching a mug of coffee and it occurs to me it's the same situation, Ham radio was during the early days of 1950. It was a wonderful time when all the Hams were working on rigs they built themselves or reworking surplus Military gear to fit the Ham frequencies. We worked on wondrous things, like single side band, suppressed carrier even before the services thought about it.
Then came the "Money Hams". They bought the best Rohn towers, the best Collins 75A4 reciever, the best linear amplifier, cash could buy. Money was no object.
Gradually, us guys that in it for the fun of the hobby got pushed aside, much like the Milton Shupes and Piglets will be and it's already killed Mke Stone and others. So you money grubbers, go for it. In your greed your doing your best to ruin what was a great hobby
 
If I may be so bold to suggest...

It looks to me like this thread has probably run it's course as I am seeing a lot of friction starting to develop. I have not entered a personal opinion in this thread because I see no reason to keep repeating it every time this topic comes up, which seems to be every six months or so on one forum or another.

Cody, it was a nice thought, but this topic is a good friend of "FS9 vs. FSX". They always end in a lock.
 
Helldiver said:
...So you money grubbers, go for it. In your greed your doing your best to ruin what was a great hobby
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Unfortunate comments. They really are.


I'm readdressing my previous thoughts in a different style, so I would ask Helldiver, are your comments and feelings applicable to Plum Island and the developer who made it? Just wondering...
 
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