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About developers, beta testing and other things.

So the DC-2 development team is employed by the Trust? Can you expand on the business relationship as there's no mention of the charity no. on your website?
Well, we are not employed by the trust, the "Uiver" Team members are all volunteers. But all the money we make with the sales of the plane goes directly to the Aviodrome museum, (except the nominal fee we pay to Flight1 obviously, to handle payments and webhosting).
The museum, here in Holland is a charity (although we don't work with a charity number here, like in the UK), and donations are tax deductable (in Holland). When your taxes are due, you just have to state the charity, and when it's on a registered list, you're OK. But I would not know how to let other people then Dutch profit from that fact.
Actually the money goes to a foundation "Friends of the Aviodrome", which set itself the goal to upkeep the collection. So the money is not used to pay the Museum staff.
And, like our voluntary work contributes to the upkeep of the Uiver, other volunteers get greasy hands in the actual work on the real aircraft. Which is another nice way to contribute to aviation history.

best, Rob
 
As one of Rob's Jolly Vollys on the DC2 I will confirm it was not a covert get rich quick scheme.

It was great to visit the museum and get a look at the plane in the hangar!

Cheers: T
 
As one of Rob's Jolly Vollys on the DC2 I will confirm it was not a covert get rich quick scheme.

It was great to visit the museum and get a look at the plane in the hangar!

Cheers: T

Indeed !

The only ones making money off of it are Flight1 actually :-(
 
Well, we are not employed by the trust, the "Uiver" Team members are all volunteers. But all the money we make with the sales of the plane goes directly to the Aviodrome museum, (except the nominal fee we pay to Flight1 obviously, to handle payments and webhosting).
The museum, here in Holland is a charity (although we don't work with a charity number here, like in the UK), and donations are tax deductable (in Holland). When your taxes are due, you just have to state the charity, and when it's on a registered list, you're OK. But I would not know how to let other people then Dutch profit from that fact.
Actually the money goes to a foundation "Friends of the Aviodrome", which set itself the goal to upkeep the collection. So the money is not used to pay the Museum staff.
And, like our voluntary work contributes to the upkeep of the Uiver, other volunteers get greasy hands in the actual work on the real aircraft. Which is another nice way to contribute to aviation history.

best, Rob

Thanks for the clarification. Much better than the MAAM-Sim "give to a DC-3, see it spent on something else" scenario! Much more transparent. :salute:
 
Hello finally everyone, my apologies for my tardiness but between a computer going down 2 days before the release of the SA2 and SOH making me reregister and then not letting me post for over a week, this is the first chance I have had to post here. I posted a response on the original thread here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=46342 explaining both our position and basically where we are aiming into future releases, that said, I want to thank Cody Berglund from Jaggyroad who I had spoken to by email in relation to this post when I was unable to respond here, for his eloquent and thoughtful initial post on behalf of both Nemeth and the developer community as a whole, I think this thread has been extremely beneficial on many different levels, in both the venting side from members and developers alike to the valuable opinions of both, sure every developer has the days of "I don't know why I bother doing this" when they read some forums, but in perspective, a relatively minor amount of complaints means your doing a pretty decent job, I have only seen a couple of gripes about the SA2, some of them are preference, some are because this was a budget priced release and we didnt add as many things as people are used to, either way, we strive to improve with every release and be innovative, hence the totally new designed VC instrument panels and fogging windows effect. The best thing about forums, is getting instant feedback on what to do and not to do in future releases. Some businesses don't get to receive that kind of instant feedback on products, for that I am thankful.
 
Snave/Simon/Allcott,

I can confirm that we do offer a full refund to any customer not satisfied with their purchase. I apologise if this is not made very clear.
Thanks,Martyn

ROFL !!!! One can hide but one cannot escape ;-)

Ironic, when I am neither of the former and only the latter.

Yeah,right.

Thanks for the clarification. Much better than the MAAM-Sim "give to a DC-3, see it spent on something else" scenario! Much more transparent.

You couldn't be much more transparent yourself, Snave/Simon/Allcott.. :jump:
 
As we head toward another Christmas, I would just like people to reflect on this:

A very great number of people rely on development of flightsim and other games assets for a living.

What isn't generally known is that a very great number of those people suffer greatly from debilitating diseases, some that would make life for us more able-bodied untenable.

These are the people that have the time (for obvious reasons) to apply to making things for this hobby. Some commercial developers pay these talented people money to provide an income and some recognition for their efforts. Which in my opinion is the correct thing to do. Interestingly enough, not many people ever come to know about what these people go through or indeed, that they even suffer at all.

To suggest that all add-ons should be free and therefore deny people a fair income for their work is just ridiculous. Flight simulation is no different to any other hobby-oriented commercial proposition, just as plastic models, iPhone apps or anything else that comes to mind. People work for money.

You get very little for nothing these days so why should it not be so in this hobby?
 
Well said Bazzar.

Absolutely different markets for different products folks. Some want and appreciate the value of freeware and some want the details, accuracy, and systems of payware. Then there are those in the middle who can appreciate flying both, and those on the fringes that want all that payware offers at a freeware cost, and then demand that freeware be as good as payware. Interesting dynamics in the community for sure. :)

There are poor and great developmental and testing processes used on both sides and that's just a fact. Your job as a consumer is to sort it out. Remember, we only produce likenesses, not actual aircraft.

Remember the bones? There are the wish bones (I wish someone would build this for me), jaw bones (they talk about doing something but seldom deliver), knuckle bones (they knock anything and everything that gets done), and back bones, those who actually get under the load and deliver the aircraft you and I fly, payware or freeware. Frankly, I appreciate it all, but I hate the politics of the knuckle bone contributors. Fortunately, these types are few as the majority here understand and appreciate those who supplement the hobby with add-ons they like and they do not have a personal agenda to lay on the rest of us.

Regarding testing? Every non-trivial system has at least one bug. Most test procedures employed in this hobby would not identify it. To correct this shortcoming, hire a cynical, condescending individual with an ego.
 
What isn't generally known is that a very great number of those people suffer greatly from debilitating diseases, some that would make life for us more able-bodied untenable.

Well said, sir. Thank you for pointing out what rarely is recognized. Truth to tell, I would be homeless were it not for the extremely modest income from the work I do. I also know that there are a few others in this cottage industry who're even worse off than myself healthwise, and for that I count my blessings.

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone my very best wishes for the holiday season, and that the New Year will bring blessings in abundance! :ernae:
 
As someone who runs a small business doing FSXware, (payware only though I do give away the odd VC) I actually pay several people to do work... as well as divvying up the shares of the products profit so.. it's not just me that's making money... it's others too.

@Milton. It would be in charge of beta testing. Apparently, you're good at that! And right now, the team needs a leader... (it can't be me as I have a real job and a brand new kid)

let me know colin at milviz dot com

And I also would like to take this moment to wish everyone out there a happy New Year and a Merry Xmas!!!!
 
Colin:

Good luck and best wishes for the new year and years to come with the new family. Big change! Thanks for all of the creative efforts as well from you and your team

Cheers: Tom
 
As someone who runs a small business doing FSXware, (payware only though I do give away the odd VC) I actually pay several people to do work... as well as divvying up the shares of the products profit so.. it's not just me that's making money... it's others too.

@Milton. It would be in charge of beta testing. Apparently, you're good at that! And right now, the team needs a leader... (it can't be me as I have a real job and a brand new kid)

let me know colin at milviz dot com

And I also would like to take this moment to wish everyone out there a happy New Year and a Merry Xmas!!!!


Yes, being a father can be a real job.......... *grin*.

Best wishes from me too :)
 
Regarding testing? Every non-trivial system has at least one bug. Most test procedures employed in this hobby would not identify it. To correct this shortcoming, hire a cynical, condescending individual with an ego.

Basicly not a single yes man on the team anywere :ernae:
 
yeahhh, a yes man is absolutely no help whatsoever.. I think most of us realize that we have shortcomings and know our work also has shortcomings and we need to know what they are ( even if sometimes we get a lil cranky). Crow is not a tasty meal, and humble pie isnt much better, but worse yet is finding out that the product that you have released is far below standards because it wasnt dissected enough in testing..
 
Testing is vital, of course. However, in commercial terms, it must be done professionally and with speed. And that's the difficult bit. Release deadlines, particularly with published, boxed titles must be met to fulfill retail order requirements otherwise a lot of money is at stake. Many testers are, with all due respect, amateur and therefore may not understand the need for prompt, complete test reports and relevance.

Wishlists are not beta tests. Products need to be tested within the parameters of the intended release. For example, if a model does not contain a particular feature, it is not the duty of a beta tester to request that it be included. Just test and report on what is there.

To be a beta tester, one needs a thorough knowlege of the subject, the simulator and its limitations. It is not easy, especially under pressure with a deadline breathing down your neck.

So anyone thinking about becoming one needs to pause for a while and think of the consequences. It is not just a way of getting a "free" aircraft.

I have nothing but respect for beta testers who know what they are doing. Without them another cog in the machine is missing. Unfortunately, good ones are rare.
 
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