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Alabeo`s Staggerwing is out!

Ok... Everyone that is stressing out needs to take a deep breath and chill.

First, Alabeo is a hugely popular group that make awesome planes, right? You know, from what you see, that they worked hard on this. You know they tried to get everything right so they didnt have to have any bad comments. Its a fact, as you can see with all the rest, that bugs 'will' surface with a public release 'after' all the testing is done. We test and test and still the bugs come out.

The plane has only been out since Tuesday. They'll fix it. Relax.

All is well. Usually a full update is carried out about a week after release, on the usual. Thats only a few days, and its already been 4 days. We know that the battery switch has to be blipped once.

Give them a chance. Take a chill pill. Bear with them. It will be worth it, I am sure.

Thanks Bill!
I don't want to close the thread because with a few minor issues this is a great work and I believe the issues will be fixed. The exterior and interior modelling is top notch and only serves to heighten one's immersion in this virtual world.
 
I totally agree with Bill. One must remember that beta testers are not infallible.

I have been on the beta teams of both versions of the Uiver DC-2, FSAddon Lockheed Hudson and the GAS Stinson. And guess what? In each case the beta testers missed some minor glitches.

What people should do is not come on here with your first or seconds posts creating a song and dance just because you have found a small glitch. The producers provide a contact point on their web page. That is where you go to inform the manufacturer of any faults found. And you do it in a nice polite way too. Better chance of getting a response.

Like Bazza said in one of his posts, producing such models consume hundreds of hours and the quickest way to turn developers away is to join a forum like SOH just to basically ridicule these developers.

Is it any wonder we lose such great developers.
 
When did personal opinion, or in this case, highlighting problems, become 'ridicule'? I don't think anyone here as attacked or ridiculed alabeo.

And I certainly didn't join to rubbish them... but I won't say nothing in the face of a problem.

Anyway, since when have carenado or alabeo ever listened to feedback? positive or negative? :p Its certainly not going to drive them away from churning out more and more planes for profit. Standards have slipped... It seems now that without fail, each release has more and more bugs.

End of the day, payware, and freeware are different matters. The moment someone charges money, they open themselves up to criticism from customers.


If this had been a freeware developer, my thoughts and comments would have been 'its great, few bits to fix, but great'

I'm paying my money for this product, If its bugged, it feels as though I've paid for half a product. I don't like that... You wouldn't buy a car, realise its got brakes that don't quite work right, lumpy seats, and bits of furniture that fall off, you wouldn't say 'oh I don't want ford to stop making cars, I'd better not complain'

Information for reviews, forum topics, should be able to contain both positive and negative remarks, made in a civil manner for users to make their own informed decisions.

Also, I asked my Badger what he thought of the staggerwing, and he just ate the keyboard, so sorry, no reviews due.
 
Entirely agree with Lionheart...
Going to buy this plane...quite sure Alabeo will solve problems. Can´t remember a project, free or payware without some glitch. Difference between good and bad developers is the way they solve it or not and how long does it take...
Remember F-86 from Milviz, inittialy with bugs promptly resolved. An excellent product, now above remarks.
Will expect same service from Alabeo, own some of their products, no reason to complain, and this Stagerwing hope will get the same service as ever...
 
If I may chime in, it sets a bad precedent that having to release a patch immediately (in this case within hours of the release for a rather glaring compass issue) is now normal.

Echoing Firekitten's sentiment "Information for reviews, forum topics, should be able to contain both positive and negative remarks, made in a civil manner for users to make their own informed decisions", the ability to communicate constructive criticism and highlight sometimes glaring faults is both completely appropriate and necessary. We likely all have definitions on what constitutes a "glaring" or "obvious" issue, and this is where some of the contention may be found. To me, the wet compass, in plain view front and center as a featureless object is a glaring issue. It was apparently recognized as such by Alabeo due to the speed of the update. I would define the reversed function of the prop rpm control the same way. Basically, for a plane of this level, the core systems, especially critical components, should be 100% on release if the beta-testing team is effective.
On that note, I would consider lesser issues, that can be fixed with a patch, to be things like minor FDE changes or minor fuel usage traits that may not line up with the real numbers, if we must subscribe to the theory that numerous followup patches soon after release is normal.

In short, I believe that there are some bugs that should be caught by a competent beta-testing team prior to release, regardless of the aircraft.

Effective testers should have an engineering mindset when they approach a product such as this. Either be familiar with the real aircraft or be familiar with something very similar. If not possible, find additional assistance from someone who is familiar with it or a similar aircraft. Have a good understanding of VFR and IFR principles and a general knowledge of the technical side of aviation.

Additionally, a competent development team, and testing team, should develop use cases, test plans, and test procedures using a testing checklist while analyzing the model. Document the functionality or concept, as well as the expected and actual result. These plans and procedures could be for the same functionality over differing environmental or system conditions for example.
Ideally, the developer would be knowledgeable enough of their own product to issue an extensive functionality checklist initially, which they then can follow up on by allowing users to identify focus areas that may need additional attention, or allow users to develop their own checklists once they gave the "official" one a run through. It's all about being methodical with documentation, critical thinking, and being able to learn new systems or concepts.

I would be willing to guess that at least 75% of FS addon products out there, be it aircraft, scenery, or utilities, do not require their beta testers to document their analysis process, and instead set them free to just fly around prior to product release, with minimal guidance, especially for beta-testers.
While ad-hoc "exploring" is certainly beneficial especially near the end of the production process in order to re-evaluate the "big picture" and do a final sweep, the method should not encompass the entire testing process.

All in all, if a development team is not willing to put in the effort to test thoroughly, methodically, and releases a product with readily apparent faults, they should be called on it constructively at first, and if the trend continues or worsens with future products, then the consumer has a right to be increasingly vocal about it. Granted, and as said, some issues like "this quarter panel is missing a rivet" are obviously trivial, but I would think that common sense and logic can usually accurately dictate what constitutes an error that "should have been" caught.

My input....
 
I agree 100 percent with Daverooo


I'm sorry - but when is anything ever perfect?
whether you buy it or get it free has no bearing on what you get - the product is the product -
it's the wants and needs of the customer that vary.
and FWIW both Carenado and Alabeo have responded to every one of my emails and addressed
my concerns directly. So that claim of indifference is rubbish too

Please try to give the benefit of the doubt and rather than rail about "all that money" they charged for an "unfinished product" why not just make a simple squawk list - like the IRL piloten do

you know - it's just a clean checklist of issues without all the verbiage and whatnot that would make your A&P guy leave an oil soaked rag in your intake manifold.

would that be ok? maybe when any new plane is released there can be a seperate sticky that's just a clean straightforward squawk list
 
Where is all this stuff about rude comments coming from? I don't think anyone in this topic has been rude... some strong opinions sure, but we're entitled to those. People's opinions about cost are their own, quality too... since when did it become custom that we must say nothing but compliments about a release? is it now a sin to be critical?
I agree, there are things that drive developers away, but can you honestly say people talking about bugs, and discussing them amongst themselves is going to do that?

If people took the time to read, they'd see my initial comment about cost, which seems to have been dragged up, was referencing another poster, not Alabeo.

'ah well for 20$ we should expect bugs'

Is disagreeing with such a statement prohibited or banned? I'm not sure it is.

I put it to the group that 'blind support and defence' of payware companies that make repeated mistakes and errors only encourages lax testing procedure. A little critical thought can do wonders for quality... bugs are understandable, but a good number of issues raised in this topic are quite clearly something that could have been prevented.

Flight simulator isn't the only business sector where 'get it out on time and make money' takes precedent over 'get it right'.


I want to make it clear, I love the plane... its a great model, with great texture work, animations and flight model. Its got some problems that I'll happily gripe about, but it doesn't detract from its quality. The icing on that cake would have been another week of testing perhaps, and it would have been golden.

Nobody likes that chalky taste of under cooked chips (fries) do they?

I think people need to gain a little perspective before running around with their 'sky is falling' hats accusing others of destroying developers. From this topic, it would seem as though the flight simulator community is one of the most fragile imaginable... that a negative thought might crack the very fabric of time... People need to appreciate the difference between criticism and an attack, they are distinctly different beasts.
 
A really strange thread. Do you all really think that I had stopped working for them only due to minor issues ???
Carenados boss is a private pilot IRL and it's beyond me how it is possible to release a plane where the prop sound is backwards.
I'm sure the beta team would have cought this error but for that it would have been necessary to have a beta tealm, or at least to receive a beta version. I usually never got more than a basic alpha version without panel.
On the other hand it's almost funny to see people getting a heart attack due to the catastrophic unbelievable 'reversed prop control' as they apparently didn't even check their instruments, and/or aircraft reaction before complaining!!!

@Daveroo
I would not even design the FDE for a toilet seat if I would consider FSX a game....furthermore 99% of the various flightsim discussions would be useless it it was a game.
 
If Alabeo "churn out" models purely for profit then I'm bound to say there are better business models around: thousands of hours to sell some hundreds of units at 20 dollars a time? But if Alabeo are people who enjoy building models for FS and charge to recoup some of the necessary costs then kudos to them.

Just because there's a price tag doesn't make them Adobe, but some will never understand that.
 
1. If Alabeo "churn out" models purely for profit ....
2. But if Alabeo are people who enjoy building models for FS
1. what else if you look how fast they are releasing planes.
2. in that case such gross errors simply wouldn't happen.

Talking about the joy of building models for FSX. I'm presently working on another completely new FDE for a Carenado plane:
The Commander 114. As the real one is a delight to fly (e.g. even 16 point hesitation rolls are possible!) this one simply deserves a realistic FDE :)
 
Talking about the joy of building models for FSX. I'm presently working on another completely new FDE for a Carenado plane:
The Commander 114. As the real one is a delight to fly (e.g. even 16 point hesitation rolls are possible!) this one simply deserves a realistic FDE :)

I will be looking forward to that one. Never flown a 114 but reading about it I was dissapointed by Carenado's FDE and never fly it anymore in FSX. Your version will return the plane to life for me.

I still owe you data on the 172. Will get there some time. I just need a willing copilot to work with me on that.
 
Talking about the joy of building models for FSX. I'm presently working on another completely new FDE for a Carenado plane:
The Commander 114. As the real one is a delight to fly (e.g. even 16 point hesitation rolls are possible!) this one simply deserves a realistic FDE :)

Oh, that's real good news! I'm very interested in the 114 FDE's. I thank you up front, Bernt.

Cheers,
Fritz
 
1. what else if you look how fast they are releasing planes.
2. in that case such gross errors simply wouldn't happen.

1. Hmmm. 8 aircraft since late 2011? The wicked scoundrels...
2. Not sure how this conclusion is achieved, I'm really dense this morning.
 
Bernt's point with 2, is that if they were such huge fans of aircraft and aviation as your number 2 suggests, they might catch one or two clangers.

Also remember Alabeo are the fun fun folks that modeled and did textures for Carenado back in the day... the Goofy 172 and 152 clusterbugs that are models and textures were their work. (they managed to break mirroring)

That is bloody fast to be fair... count 10 if you include the nearly done r66 and Traumahawk, thats just over three a year, so they get perhaps 4 months per aircraft? (thats generous) that's either a full time job, or they are spending even less time on it. The techniques they use ( you can tell) show the short cuts taken, looking at the models shows you the 'mend and make do' attitude they and their parent Carenado had over the years. The sudden jump to defend two companies as paragons of the flight simulator spirit is a little dramatic... and late.

I will say one thing on the topic... before people jump up and shout others out for being upset by bugs in a $20 addon, consider please, that v$ is a lot to some. Nobody in this topic has been abusive towards Alabeo, or nasty, or hurtful without reason. Nothing here would make a developer recoil in horror and quit flight sim. As Bernt said... they have no beta team, and he doesn't hear of testing taking place...

Does that change your noble defence?




Bernt: the 114 eh? Nice! loved that birdy... not the fde it had. Must show you the Dak PA28-236 I made out of their 'archer-ish' flight model some time.
 
I am going out on a limb here and I fell victim to this type of conversation in the past but can the mod's of this site consider limiting conversation to new item announcement to that item with posts such as screen shots, if that....how about a single post by anyone with screenshots and then close the subject. I would suggest that a separate thread be created for those who wish to rip apart a product so that those of us who don't wish to read this trashing and picking apart don't have to. I have had no problems with this plane since its purchase. I'm not sure what it is people want from these companies but......there is no such thing as perfection in anything we do in this world. I have grown to accept hat these products will be produced and put out with issues.......for the most part the issues are fixed....at from the reliable companies. I think for $20 this plane is OUTSTANDING and I can't wait for the next product form Alebeo.



I can not believe the length some have gone to trash these people. Here is a company who announces a product and produces it. We have a few very well known companies who announce product after product and might put one out a year if that but yet if anyone says anything negative about them....heaven forbid you might get banned or something...these threads are so tiring.


Thank you ALEBEO for producing a product that I personally enjoy very much!
 
So say something bad about a product... be hounded off the forum for forsaking the gods of 'insert payware company here'.

I think the discussion here was totally productive and USEFUL before people like you jumped in telling us how evil we are for not licking their boots... how DARE we discuss problems! They will fix them! have faith!

People discussed problems, and solutions... there was some debate about cost and quality, and it was pretty civil... then the 'omg don't be nasty!' crowd showed up and destroyed this one... Look to yourselves folks, you lot derailed this one, not those you attack.
 
I take the middle road. It's always good to have perspective on things, but it's also good to have quality and ideals to strive for.

There's a difference between subtle issues that are difficult and costly to revise, and straight-out "why didn't you at least change elevator_trim_effectiveness from default 1.0 to 6.0 in the aircraft.cfg before release?!"-type stuff.

I think it's the latter those of us whose lives aren't depending upon complete accuracy get frustrated by; just a little more attention to detail, or even an attempt to trim the Staggerwing, might have caught that. Or, alternately, one sentence in the docs saying (if true) that the Staggerwing has a completely ineffective trim for elevators.

That's the kind of stuff often missed that _someone_, _somewhere_ in the process could be responsible for reviewing before release? Or is it more complicated than that?

Alternate perspective: release it with such issues so the FS community will discover and comment and fix themselves, to their own satisfaction, make that part of "the game."

Then there are the maddening little things, case in point: the (few?) of us who purchased the Nemeth Designs Expansion Pack for the AS350 (beatifully modelled visually, btw! and lots of fun to fly!) have -- for those who purchased it upon release -- been waiting over a YEAR for a stupid VC Rain effect that is apparently built into the .mdl file.....??? and that produces epileptic fits since one frame goes black as the animation cycles, for any kind of response from ND. What's not clear is how complicated it is to resolve such an issue. Is it a simple edit of an animation loop and recompile? Did the .mdl file go missing in Hungary? Are there laws in Hungary preventing AS350s from flying in the rain, so that this was an intentional reminder? Is the denial of the issue in initial response the result of a true, "works fine on MY system" situation, or simply lack of attention? The animation only starts epileptic-seizure-flickering when the helicopter starts moving forward in the rain -- how difficult would that have been to catch before release?

I just deal with the above scenario myself by saying, oops, AS350 Expansion choppers, they melt in the rain, for VFR on Sunny Days Only. Just like any FSX technique. :)

But it's really a philosophical issue: we can't know "outside" what level of complexity or what nature of situation allows resolution or fails to lead to resolution of problems of various levels. I have, in my relatively naive exploration of payware, learned pretty quickly that often what look like "simple" issues really aren't, and alternately, am shocked when some super-simple issues get passed through.

Not just payware for FSX, either; this is an endemic issue in software in general. Programmers and graphics artists can be a moody lot and just take the piss on their audience, too, even. ;)

There's the other "audience bug" of what we used to call "grognardism" in the turn-based historical wargaming genre many years ago; the more "expert" players of the genre became, the more increasingly insane the noodling on details became, making life hell for anyone who wanted to attempt to make a wargame. At some point, opening up the ability to tweak variables to the user's content provided some solution, but then the element of surprise was often lost. So, this is a persistent problem that, hopefully, Twitter will solve (increasing Airheadism worldwide) some day. It is truly a challenge for software devs, as the more dedicated the audience, the more anxious they become about mis-placed nose-hairs on the pilot modelled in the cockpit.

So it's best to remain calm, but continue to push patiently for quality and resolution, and then to just happily scratch your head when it doesn't happen. And over time, as these forums prove, the developers' quality or lack thereof will gain or lose audience.
 
No one is saying that pointing out bugs or other issues with a new release is bad
...only that in some cases the way it's done is over the top - or implies an agenda

at some point it becomes counter productive -
this model is new - it comes from a well known developer - it has some faults at release - it's not a perfect product or a perfect world - these faults may or may not be repaired by the developer -
if you don't like the developer , don't buy their product
but don't clobber everyone over the head with your disappointment -
i have emailed Alabeo regarding some of these squawks and have been informed that they are being
addressed - Alabeo has always replied and does not disappoint me, but I am not a modeler, pilot or painter
just another well intentioned Canadian
 
I think the last page was worthless.

Back on topic.

Im enjoying the plane. Used the Stolle 180 tail wheel fix (thanks). Can't decide if I should fly without the spar enabled hehe. Damn thing is right in the middle of my viewpoint grrr.
 
No one is saying that pointing out bugs or other issues with a new release is bad
...only that in some cases the way it's done is over the top - or implies an agenda

at some point it becomes counter productive -
this model is new - it comes from a well known developer - it has some faults at release - it's not a perfect product or a perfect world - these faults may or may not be repaired by the developer -
if you don't like the developer , don't buy their product
but don't clobber everyone over the head with your disappointment -
i have emailed Alabeo regarding some of these squawks and have been informed that they are being
addressed - Alabeo has always replied and does not disappoint me, but I am not a modeler, pilot or painter
just another well intentioned Canadian

Faults are glitches... Having the nav lights reversed is a total oversight.... not just the config, the actual colours... I was looking out and wondering why I had a green port lamp...

And the only bashing here is coming from the Alabeo Fanclub... the 'be nice to everyone cartel' that seems to demand nothing but positive comments. Thats the bashing... not the small complaints or disappointed statements made... you guys rocked this off the wall.

I actually like the aircraft... i haven't a problem with it in pricipal, but Im annoyed at the flaws. Otherwise its actually pretty awesome.
 
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