Hurricane91
SOH-CM-2023
Oh my, such language!
As the nature of things progress...
- Thread starter nigel richards
- Start date
At the back of "Pilot's Summer" there is a comment that the relatively high purchase cost,docility in general handling and higher fuel consumption of the Tutor weighed against it in comparison to the Tiger Moth.
David Ogilvy in "From Bleriot to Spitfire" essentially concurs: " It is a gentleman's aeroplane in its roominess and docility........Assessing it as an aeroplane to fly, it qualifies as excellent; judging it as a trainer on which to teach, it fails to object sufficiently strongly to minor mishandling, so an instructor might not find his pupils' errors standing out as glaringly as they should."
Sounds good to me. Now all you have to do is decide how much of the flight envelope you can most closely match within the limits of flightsim!
I think it was Brian Lecomber who raised eyebrows when he stated in a Pilot magazine that he preferred the Stampe to the Tiger Moth as a plane to fly.
To be fair to de Havilland, the handling of the Moth was compromised by the RAF requirement to move the centre of the top wing forward to facilitate exit from the front cockpit in an emergency. It did win them a few thousand orders while there were only a few hundred Tutors built, so who had the last laugh?
David Ogilvy in "From Bleriot to Spitfire" essentially concurs: " It is a gentleman's aeroplane in its roominess and docility........Assessing it as an aeroplane to fly, it qualifies as excellent; judging it as a trainer on which to teach, it fails to object sufficiently strongly to minor mishandling, so an instructor might not find his pupils' errors standing out as glaringly as they should."
Sounds good to me. Now all you have to do is decide how much of the flight envelope you can most closely match within the limits of flightsim!
I think it was Brian Lecomber who raised eyebrows when he stated in a Pilot magazine that he preferred the Stampe to the Tiger Moth as a plane to fly.
To be fair to de Havilland, the handling of the Moth was compromised by the RAF requirement to move the centre of the top wing forward to facilitate exit from the front cockpit in an emergency. It did win them a few thousand orders while there were only a few hundred Tutors built, so who had the last laugh?
magoo
SOH-CM-2013
I'd agree with the cost of Moth versus Tutor being one of the keys to the Tiger Moth's popularity.
Certainly the Tutor's pleasant stability didn't help sell more. While the Moth is fairly easy in normal flight regimen, it's well known to be quite intense during aerobatics.
Bad habits or lack of talent quickly revealed.
Thinking about the two planes, I'm want to create a visual association. I'm thinking of nineteen thirties cars, the Avro 621 as a Red Label Bentley, the Tiger Moth as an MG.
Would that be fair?
To reinforce the Bentley/Avro visual association (Ettore Bugatti stating that Bentley built the fastest lorries in the world...) .....I would provide a link to a before and after images of an Avro 646 Floatplane that nailed a buoy at speed....check out how the all-steel wing stucture handled the impact, where most other designs simply would have splintered.
https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/526932
Certainly the Tutor's pleasant stability didn't help sell more. While the Moth is fairly easy in normal flight regimen, it's well known to be quite intense during aerobatics.
Bad habits or lack of talent quickly revealed.
Thinking about the two planes, I'm want to create a visual association. I'm thinking of nineteen thirties cars, the Avro 621 as a Red Label Bentley, the Tiger Moth as an MG.
Would that be fair?
To reinforce the Bentley/Avro visual association (Ettore Bugatti stating that Bentley built the fastest lorries in the world...) .....I would provide a link to a before and after images of an Avro 646 Floatplane that nailed a buoy at speed....check out how the all-steel wing stucture handled the impact, where most other designs simply would have splintered.
https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/526932
Bushi
Charter Member
pffft.. that will buff out!
She'll be in the air again by this afternoon lads! 
And on your earlier comment.. yes.. I found the Moth to be a very nice pleasant airplane to fly, and giving "Audrey" the respect one should a very old lady, did not 'wring her out' on any of the opportunities I had to fly her.. although she was quite receptive to the odd loop, roll, sideslip, ,,,you know.. mild stuff.
And yes.. I would concur.. a Moth could be compared to a 1930's MG... this one being my ultimate favorite automobile of ALL time..
Cheers
Dave
Attachments
nigel richards
Charter Member
Some excellent input there, Arl - very much appreciated, Sir.
I would be tempted to endorse Magoo's comment on the Shuttleworth's Tutor which I can only presume was the source of David Ogilvy's Tutor flight experience. For fully understandable reasons of preservation, Shuttleworth's Lynx engine was/is never really given full rein.
Love the "Bentley/AVRO" comparison, Sir!
nigel richards
Charter Member
pffft.. that will buff out!
And on your earlier comment.. yes.. I found the Moth to be a very nice pleasant airplane to fly, and giving "Audrey" the respect one should a very old lady, did not 'wring her out' on any of the opportunities I had to fly her.. although she was quite receptive to the odd loop, roll, sideslip, ,,,you know.. mild stuff.
And yes.. I would concur.. a Moth could be compared to a 1930's MG... this one being my ultimate favorite automobile of ALL time..
Cheers
Dave
Good grief!
I'd swear I see that blue MG parked outside the AVRO test hangar on practically a daily basis - keep up the good work, Dave!
spokes2112
Charter Member
Kevin,
From many moons ago - I believe the slats (as leading edge flaps) are just eye candy regardless of what is in the aircraft.cfg.
The scalar won't do anything as there is nothing to scale.
I believe Nigel wanted it this way to keep the FDE from being too........ (insert word here)
From the Trainer_621.air file (and all others), section 1101 "primary aerodynamics".
Cd_df Drag Coefficient - Flaps = 0
Cd_df Lift - Flaps = 0.00000
Cm_df Pitch Moment - Flaps = 0.00000
Slowing the sim rate to half & looking at Cl vs AoA in AFSD, there is no difference slats open or closed. As you say there are no values in the air file even though there are in the config.
MG, nice, reminds me of my first car - a 1931 OHC Morris Minor sports body fitted with a MG block - but no brakes worth mentioning.......
Keith
MG, nice, reminds me of my first car - a 1931 OHC Morris Minor sports body fitted with a MG block - but no brakes worth mentioning.......
Keith
Yesterday evening I finally found some time to fly the latest beta. You don't have to worry about me, but real life have been quite interesting the last weeks.
Far more intelligent persons have already made their comments. So I just enjoy flying and keep my mouth shut before I (again) make a fool of myself
Brilliant aircraft! And before somebody here comments, I took the 5 cylinder float plane for a spin (among other models). It took me a bit more water to get airborne, than with the 7 cylinder model, but flying the less powered aircraft was a real delight!
Just enjoying,
Huub
Far more intelligent persons have already made their comments. So I just enjoy flying and keep my mouth shut before I (again) make a fool of myself
Brilliant aircraft! And before somebody here comments, I took the 5 cylinder float plane for a spin (among other models). It took me a bit more water to get airborne, than with the 7 cylinder model, but flying the less powered aircraft was a real delight!
Just enjoying,
Huub
nigel richards
Charter Member
Brilliant aircraft! And before somebody here comments, I took the 5 cylinder float plane for a spin (among other models). It took me a bit more water to get airborne, than with the 7 cylinder model, but flying the less powered aircraft was a real delight!
Just enjoying,
Huub
"Just enjoying..."
Now that happens to be the supreme cherry on every developer's cake, Huub - Thanks!
Bushi
Charter Member
Playing around with some more textures
Tonight, I started work on the Portugese Navy bird. not done. but a good start to get things in the right places.. and the right colours.
Yes.. it's a floatplane.. but NO this is NOT the correct model! I need one with the rear 'gun' emplacement, but with no gun, and a cover over the round hole...and the fuel tank in the upper wing center.
So.. basically a PREFECT on floats... and not sure if the Portugese ones carried the gun.. I've only got a couple of colour plates to go by here..
cheers
Dave
Tonight, I started work on the Portugese Navy bird. not done. but a good start to get things in the right places.. and the right colours.
Yes.. it's a floatplane.. but NO this is NOT the correct model! I need one with the rear 'gun' emplacement, but with no gun, and a cover over the round hole...and the fuel tank in the upper wing center.
So.. basically a PREFECT on floats... and not sure if the Portugese ones carried the gun.. I've only got a couple of colour plates to go by here..
cheers
Dave
Attachments
Bushi
Charter Member
and there we have it..Portuguese Navy added to our fleet!
All that really remains now is the aircraft number and some 'tidying up' of the textures once Nigel gets the correct model for this scheme all sorted out. Third crew position with cover (anyone know if they DID carry the gun???), no spinner, and the big fat upper wing center section fuel tank (basically a Prefect on floats)
Yes Nigel.. there is no rest!! LOL
To be completely honest, I'll probably NEVER fly it in these colours.. too many other schemes I like.. but I KNOW there will be Portuguese simmers out there that will!
And it is pretty!!!!
cheers
Dave
All that really remains now is the aircraft number and some 'tidying up' of the textures once Nigel gets the correct model for this scheme all sorted out. Third crew position with cover (anyone know if they DID carry the gun???), no spinner, and the big fat upper wing center section fuel tank (basically a Prefect on floats)
Yes Nigel.. there is no rest!! LOL
To be completely honest, I'll probably NEVER fly it in these colours.. too many other schemes I like.. but I KNOW there will be Portuguese simmers out there that will!
And it is pretty!!!!
cheers
Dave
Attachments
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2024
Floaty one .cfg files
Hello chaps,
I've made a couple of minor changes to the .cfg files for the float versions if anyone wants to try them
(MOI figures and moved the CG down below the datum axis)
View attachment 60079View attachment 60080
ttfn
Pete
Hello chaps,
I've made a couple of minor changes to the .cfg files for the float versions if anyone wants to try them
(MOI figures and moved the CG down below the datum axis)
View attachment 60079View attachment 60080
ttfn
Pete
Bushi
Charter Member
Well.. just a few minutes in, and I like it. I had already changed the roll stability to 2.0 to try and get her to be a bit more stable, and it was working, and coupled with your new bits.. she flies like a dream.. so.. I backed off the roll stability to 1.5, and still holding a course quite nicely... once you get her sorted out and DEAD level.. sometimes NOT an easy task with my joystick!!.. but it seems a bit LESS finicky now.
nigel richards
Charter Member
Versions of the Prefect with and without the Lewis gun installation are still in the works, Gentlemen.
Most Air Forces (with notable exceptions) including the RAF ordered the standard 2 seater (covered gun position).
Thankfully, the rear pilot position was covered with a purpose-built cover when used for gunnery practice. Just as well, as this saves our bacon regarding maximum poly limit.
Attachments
nigel richards
Charter Member
nigel richards
Charter Member
Bushi
Charter Member
Versions of the Prefect with and without the Lewis gun installation are still in the works, Gentlemen.
Most Air Forces (with notable exceptions) including the RAF ordered the standard 2 seater (covered gun position).
Thankfully, the rear pilot position was covered with a purpose-built cover when used for gunnery practice. Just as well, as this saves our bacon regarding maximum poly limit.
Oh I knew they were coming nigel! LOL.... just getting a bit of a head start.. and doing 'easy' schemes with no paintkit.. ( a technique I have 'mostly' figured out!!
)Also.. in that colour plate of the Portuguese aircraft... did you notice the different float profile??? I'm not sure if they used more than one float design. I will have to source some actual photographs and make sure.. after all.. this IS an artists conception!
cheers
Dave
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2024
Also.. in that colour plate of the Portuguese aircraft... did you notice the different float profile??? I'm not sure if they used more than one float design. I will have to source some actual photographs and make sure.. after all.. this IS an artists conception!
cheers
Dave
Float profile here... https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/526932
hey Nigel, how about a low poly float version on the beaching gear as a scenery object...?
ttfn
Pete