Conspicuous by Their Absence

this is an interesting subject
that deserves it's own thread.
at least, then, it would be easier to find
for future reference.

it's something, i believe,
we would like to learn more about.
although, i have to admit, like OleBoy,
in the FX discussion;
"...areas pertaining to flight dynamics.
Generally, I just moved on.
I was over whelmed with it."

maybe, if it started with making basic changes
to a stock p-51d.air file for a very simple aircraft,
the process might be easier to understand
and, over all, not be quite so overwhelming.

i'd also be curious to know how hubba
modifies for his ships and the jeep.

just a thought....or two.
 
Hello Guys,

I actually worked up a "Drive Model" for Hubbabubba's Jeep also.
It took a bit of effort, but did pretty much what I wanted it to do.
Each time I play with another project, I learn something new and that "Drive Model", which I believe Hubbabubba didn't use, taught me a bit about the lack of stability of a tail dragger landing gear.

One would think that a tricycle with the single wheel in front would have a greater tendency to tip when cornering, but

I believe I can pull off a pretty fair "Engine Tuning" tutorial for CFS, but don't know if I really know enough for a good Flight Model tutorial. I can pretty much accomplish what I set out to do in terms of performance and handling, but the methods are not necessarily technically the "Correct" way to do things.

- Ivan.
 
i. for one, would like to see
that " "Engine Tuning" tutorial for CFS"

of course, you have to know from the start
that there won't be a lot of comments,
but, i'm sure folks will read it.
that's just the way it is around here.

so, please, give it a go.
 
Ivan said:
Hello Guys,

I actually worked up a "Drive Model" for Hubbabubba's Jeep also.
It took a bit of effort, but did pretty much what I wanted it to do.
Each time I play with another project, I learn something new and that "Drive Model", which I believe Hubbabubba didn't use, taught me a bit about the lack of stability of a tail dragger landing gear.

(...)

- Ivan.
Click to expand...

Any aircraft should use a CFS1-like AIR file, but land/sea vehicles...?

Last time I tried one of your AIR files for the jeep, Ivan, it was flying for miles once driven over a cliff.

Land vehicles and ships do pretty well on a FS98-like AIR file, as long as you do look for "driveability" (or "steerability") rather than specs.

BTW, smilo is right; this thread is turning into a "smörgåsbord".

Happy Easter guys!:naturesm:
 
hubbabubba said:
...
BTW, smilo is right; this thread is turning into a "smörgåsbord".
Happy Easter guys!:naturesm:
Click to expand...
that it is, but in it's defense,
subjects that are "conspicuous in their absence"
are brought up and, generally, if there is interest
in pursuing said subject, a new thread is started.

or, am i totally off base?

...and a Happy Easter to you all, too

spring is in the air, maties.
it's been sunny and in the 60s.
a veritable heat wave for these parts.
green things are popping out
and there's even a bit of color.
 
hubbabubba said:
Any aircraft should use a CFS1-like AIR file, but land/sea vehicles...?

Last time I tried one of your AIR files for the jeep, Ivan, it was flying for miles once driven over a cliff.
Happy Easter guys!:naturesm:
Click to expand...

Hello Hubbabubba,

My recollection was that my "drive model" didn't have any lift at all though the controls did allow it to be steered and pitched up and down if driven off a cliff. It never could reverse, so was somehat limited. I believe I sent you the final version, but perhaps I did not.

I prefered my "drive model" to yours but will admit that it was because it was doing what *I* thought it should do.
In other words, I believe mine was better more because it was mine than because of any real demonstrated superiority to your "drive model".

Happy Easter Everyone.
- Ivan.

P.S. I was stuck on a iPad for a while this afternoon while my son was playing on this computer. Re reading the first few pages of this thread was quite entertaining. Many things have changed, but many more have remained the same. It certainly is wildly off the original topic, but a pretty good general discussion in any case. Glad to have had you all here.
 
Hello smilo:wavey:

I do remember your veranda pictures; moss was growing on everything. No wonder that you would consider green sort of "blah". BTW- forest green is my favorite color. When I have a screen saver picture of a green pasture or forest (it changes every 24 hours at midnight), it makes my day.

Hello Ivan:wavey:

I had comparative test drive and "my" FS98 AIR file was marginally better in speed control, acceleration, steering... but yours was getting closer after each new version. I'm not prejudiced towards CFS1 AIR files. I do remember that I did ask you to give it a try. I simply think that, having less entries, they're easier to adapt to land/sea vehicles... for now.

Hello Womble55:wavey:

Ivan is probably the best "go to guy" when it comes to AIR files. Personally, I do mine more by "feelings" than specs but, when in a snag, I do turn to Ivan - but I do not always follow his advices as you can see above...:kilroy:
 
hubbabubba said:
Ivan is probably the best "go to guy" when it comes to AIR files....
Click to expand...

Hello Hubbabubba,
That means quite a lot coming from you.

hubbabubba said:
Hello Ivan:wavey:

I had comparative test drive and "my" FS98 AIR file was marginally better in speed control, acceleration, steering... but yours was getting closer after each new version. I'm not prejudiced towards CFS1 AIR files. I do remember that I did ask you to give it a try. I simply think that, having less entries, they're easier to adapt to land/sea vehicles... for now
Click to expand...

As I stated earlier, it all comes down to how each of us thinks a Jeep / Car should behave. We obviously don't agree here.
The areas you mentioned are exactly where I believe my "drive model" was better:

The speed control issue was one I tested quite a lot. When driving, one should be able to hold exactly 27 mph or whatever and not stray more than one or two mph and be able to do it easily. Mine did that in my testing.

The Jeep wasn't a speed demon and was about a 1800-2000 pound vehicle (loaded) with only 60 hp or so.
Acceleration would have been quite poor. The rest of the details are from memory, so beware:
Gearing was also quite non-optimal, so 0-60 times in the 12-15 second range seem about right from an intuitive sense. Top end was only about 80 mph or so IIRC and I figure a beast like this would take around 25-30 seconds to get there. Also because of the gearing, 0-10 mph acceleration should be quite good.
The resulting AIR file pretty much did what I wanted in that respect. I tested it quite a few times with a stop watch.

I also believe steering was better because you could hold a minimum radius turn only to about 20 mph and it steered quite precisely. Also, at higher speeds, there was no difficulty in being able to drive along a road and stay in your own lane which I tested using the edge of a runway and the CFS scenery "Train Tracks". Again, it did pretty much what I wanted.

There was a bit of torque effect on acceleration (CFS AIR File residue) which simulated the planting of one of the rear wheels on a high power rear-drive launch or torque steer from a front-drive high power launch. The Jeep's suspension was quite crude. The front of the jeep would dive as you might expect with braking as well.

Then again, I personally have never driven a wartime Willy's Jeep, so a lot is speculation from experience with other vehicles.
- Ivan.
 
Hi everyone, I'm inches away from finishing my Wellesley (a couple of bleeds, wing roots to build, a couple of missing panels and the U/C parts to arrange) but I cant get the Air file right. 1) The aircraft flies hands off but gradually banks left. 2) I've altered the engine specs in the Air file to read correct for a Bristol Pegasus i.e.(9 cylinders + displacement per cylinder + max RPM + max HP) but when on a test flight the indicated HP using the test gauge says 1459 HP and rises to 1600HP with supercharging. The gradual bank has got me scratching my head but the engine misreporting is annoying me totally. Do I put incorrect info into the Air file so my reported HP is correct or do I keep the correct info.
 
Hello Womble55,

A Wellesley would be a cool addition to the CFS menagerie. Please send me a zip of the the aircraft so I can check it out because otherwise I would be just guessing. If you haven't already, you can check out the "Engine Tuning Tutorial" I have been working on because it would probably address a bunch of issues you are probably running into.

And Post some screenshots! A Wellesley is an interesting looking bird.

- Ivan.
 
Hi everyone, I'm afraid you will have to wait for the Wellesley pics as I am currently on vacation, a week in Lyme Regis. With my job, I usually get up at 04:30 so what happens when I go on holiday? Its 05:30 now so Here is my take on the problems.

I think the gradual left bank is due to insufficient dihedral, also the ailerons and elevators are way too sensitive so are probably contributing to the instability. So that will be my first port of call.

The Vickers Wellesley has been in my Projects folder for an awful long time, it took me a couple of years to get a decent 3-view. Unless you know the history of the Wellesley then you are up the creek without a paddle because the majority of 3-views were either of the prototype or the examples from the LRDU. Easy to know which is the prototype because the tailwheel was encased in a spat and the LRDU had long chord engine cowlings. Incidently the Mk2 wasn't a Mk2 at all but a heavily modified Mk1 with added inter-cockpit glasswork.

The model has had several fuselages, wings, cockpits and engines but the current example is up to scratch.

Dawn is now breaking and the view is stunning, no chickens to put out..........time for another cup of tea.

see you all next week
 
If you are still having issues with the Wellesley, I can check out the AIR file if you email it. It would help to see how it lines up with the visual, but that isn't absolutely necessary.

- Ivan.
 
I'll have a go first, drop the sensitivity a tad, after all the pilot of a Wellesley wasn't expected to pull large amounts of G as in a P51. Once the list and the snake from the oversensitive controls is sorted I will send you a pre-publication version of the Wellesley.

The model is currently in it's fourth or fifth version, this was partly dictated by the fact that it was two years before I acquired a decent three view of a Mk1 Wellesley. Incidently, there wasn't a Mk2, just a version used for test flying adapted with a continuous canopy between the cockpits. The three views available when I started the project were either of the prototype or a Mk1 of the LRDU. Both are easily identifiable, the prototype had a spat on its tailwheel and the LRDU Wellesleys of the LRDU had long chord cowlings over their Bristol Pegasus.

see you all after my vacation
 
Hello Womble55,

Take your time. Enjoy your holiday. Send me a copy if you believe I can help. I also have a similar list on my Lavochkin fighters. I never went back to fix it. Perhaps setting a bit of trim before take-off is sufficient?

- Ivan.
 
Hi Ivan,
I tried setting the trim but because of the over sensitivity it then lists to starboard, in fact this is what put me on the route to decrease the sensitivity and the apparent lack of dihedral.

Its now the last day of my break and I'll be on my way home tomorrow so with a bit of skill I will be back on my PC but the garden has been left to its own devices for a week and the triffids will need shooting.
 
Trim Settings

Hi Womble55,

Are you setting the trim effect per notch in the AIR file or setting a notch or two of trim as you fly?
I don't believe there are any static trim settings (initial trim) in the AIR file.
If you found some parameters that work this way, please let me know where.

If it is one notch of trim that makes it lean the other direction, you need to lower the effect of the lateral trim.
I find that the stock aircraft all have way too coarse trim to the point that although you can trim to compensate for battle damage, you basically can't trim the aircraft to fly hands off. Trim settings for my aeroplanes tend to be just a fraction of the numbers for the stock aircraft.

- Ivan.
 
....A couple more thoughts if you are starting with the P51D AIR file.

Set the stuff you basically know in the AIR file before you really get to tuning:

1. Wing dimensions
2. Zero Fuel Weight
3. Guess at the inertias. I would guess that all of them would be way higher than the P51D, especially roll and yaw.
4. Increase the damping effect on every axis, especially roll. That HUGE wing is going to make rolling VERY slow.
5. This critter carried HUGE fuel tanks. Add those and see if your aircraft becomes much less sensitive.
6. Get the basic armament weights correct. 2 x .303 I believe.
7. Get the basic engine performance and adjust drag.
8. Landng Gear and Cockpit Viewpoints.

Before you do the basics, tuning is a waste of time because some of the factors I mentioned are going to change the handling substantially.

- Ivan.
 
Hi Ivan,
Thanks for the pointers, I did start with the P51 Air file and I have a direction to take now. I haven't managed to find the fuel loading online yet or the ammunition loadout. A lot of answers are false as they refer to the LRDU Wellesleys which had most military equipment removed for their flight to Australia. They also had extra tankage for the trip but I do have a 'Flight' magazine cutaway which details the tank positions but it is in French and is taking a while to translate. You develop many skills in this game don't you!
 
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