Damage modelling Vs Weapons strength

Which weapons effectiveness setting is most realistic....to you!

  • Normal

    Votes: 5 62.5%
  • Strong

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • Stongest

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8
To give you an idea of the history of FM and DM alone in OFF the craft in P1 would break as you describe especially in high G moves and folks complained......

I can see only one real solution coming about and that is scalable damage models - and trust me that is not a small amount of work.

Already we see in this thread folks happy with it folks unhappy with it - there is no one size one fit solution we all know that lol!

The only thing I can learn from this Poll is what % are happy and what % not and try to keep the majority happy?

Or make it scalable.........P4?

Anyway the idea of the Poll is to see where we lie on the happiness factor across the audience we have here in SOH, which does not even take into account all the lurkers and non forum users, - but so be it that the reason for my Poll


Yep James making notes that's why I made the Poll.

WM

a) Scalable damage models.

b) A trigger-event (break up as well as fire).

I'll make the offer again, if the scalable option involves grunt-work to text files I'm up for the job. Tell me which files, the ranges of values available, how many for each plane, whatever, I'll get it done within a week. :)
 
a) Scalable damage models.

b) A trigger-event (break up as well as fire).

I'll make the offer again, if the scalable option involves grunt-work to text files I'm up for the job. Tell me which files, the ranges of values available, how many for each plane, whatever, I'll get it done within a week. :)

a) I hear ya.

b) There are many trigger events already in DM - CFS3 has a great DM model.

c) There is more to it than just text work....

anyway we are jumping the gun I will wait for the Poll results first and see!

HTH

WM
 
Normal.

It's my understanding that the basic CFS3 engine is, like the vast majority of flightsims, unable to model bullet penetration. IOW, your bullet's all go splat like a bug on the 1st surface encountered, even if it's only a piece of canvas. Damage is only scored if that area of surface is covered by a hit box.

NOTE: I could be wrong about this, but if I'm not, this is a limitation we should keep in mind in this discussion. If I am wrong, then just ignore the rest of this wall o' text because it is all based on this assumption.

There are several implications to this lack of penetration. The most important in terms of getting quick kills is that you have to have a clear line of fire to the vitals. Consider the pilot. From the upper forward arcs, he's shielded by the upper wing. From below, he's protected by the fuselage. In real life, of course, this canvas and plywood wouldn't do him any good at all, but it's an absolute defense the way the underlying game engine operates (not OFF's fault).

Thus, no matter how high you set your bullet strength, you're not going to hurt the pilot if all your bullets hit some part of the plane before they reach his hit box. OTOH, I would assume that the whole damage system was designed with "normal" bullet strength in mind as realistic. Thus, if you set your bullets on strong, you will do disproportionate damage to the parts you hit per bullet than you really should. Thus, it seems that setting bullets above "normal" is a bad idea. We just have to live with the limitation of the game engine.

I also believe that the reason badly shot-up planes keep on flying more or less straight ahead is because they're so stable. I have yet to encounter any plane in OFF that falls out of the sky hands-off, even without setting the trim. This includes even the Camel. Thus, even with a dead pilot at the controls, the plane might go on straight and level for miles. There's a famous incident where this actually happened to a Quirk, which made a perfect and literally "dead"-stick landing far behind German lines after being shot up badly by 2 entire Jastas.

I think this is something that might need looking into. Maybe make it so that when a pilot dies, he almost always spawns a "ground-seeking" AI pilot to take his place ;). Maybe later look into the inherent stability of such notorious cranks as the Camel and RE8.

On the subject of structural failure from direct gunfire, shooting wings right off doesn't appear to have happened very often at all in real life, so I have no trouble with it being rare in OFF. Bear in mind that to do this you have to hit the important structural part of the wing, which is a tiny fraction of the whole. And if the hit box for this is aligned along the main spar, I doubt strongly that you can hit it from behind, due to the aforementioned inability for bullets to penetrate. All your rounds stop on the canvas near the trailing edge, leaving the spar intact.

As to indirect structural failure, I define this as overstress, either before or after damage. I have broken quite a few of my own airplanes from too much G, too much speed, or getting too close to angry clouds (which appear to inflict both). The breaking point of my airplane appears to decrease as it gets damaged, too. I have seen AI squaddies dive steeper than I could survive and appear unharmed afterwards. So I'm not sure that AI planes can suffer overstress damage at all, let alone this becoming easier for them after I shoot them up.

HOWEVER, I will say that the vast majority of the hits I inflict on the enemy are from good rear hemisphere tracking shots, because I can't shoot well enough to hit them in high deflection :). I have to compensate for poor marksmanship by flying well. The corollary to this is that the vast majority of the hits I suffer are from high deflection snapshots, again because I fly well and don't let the baddies get on my 6 very often. I think this distinction is important in that it has a direct impact on the type and severity of the damage inflicted.

If bullets can't penetrate, then the traditional killing shot from astern is about the worst position from which to inflict fatal damage. You are very unlikely to get bullets into the vitals of pilot, motor, and fuel. The majority of your rounds will splatter harmlessly on the rear fuselage and wing trailing edges. About all you're likely to hurt is the functionality of the rudder and elevators.

OTOH, high-deflection shots usually present the target's entire planform. This enables you to get rounds into the hit boxes for the upper wing spar and aileron control wires, the Albatros radiator, etc. And the engine itself and the pilot are exposed in whole or in part during the pass as the angles change. You'll probably get some hits on the horizontal tail's inner boxes, too, at the end of your burst.

Anyway, these predictions are matched very well by my observations. I sit behind the enemy and hose him down to little apparent effect, while the enemy knocks me out of the sky with quick snapshots. I believe this is all due to the inability of bullets to penetrate. RB2/3D was exactly the same in this regard.
 
a) I hear ya.

b) There are many trigger events already in DM - CFS3 has a great DM model.

c) There is more to it than just text work....

anyway we are jumping the gun I will wait for the Poll results first and see!

HTH

WM

I'm not sure the poll, as you've put it, applies particularly well to the issue I originally raised. On "Strongest" I've not been able to make a plane come apart. They go down easier, for sure, but personally that wasn't what I was after in particular (though I do feel they go down more realistically in regard to ease on "Strong").

The poll should ask "Do you want to see planes come apart?" No point asking that one, because I suspect the answer would be 100% "yes". :icon_lol:
 
Normal.

It's my understanding that the basic CFS3 engine is, like the vast majority of flightsims, unable to model bullet penetration. IOW, your bullet's all go splat like a bug on the 1st surface encountered, even if it's only a piece of canvas. Damage is only scored if that area of surface is covered by a hit box.

NOTE: I could be wrong about this, but if I'm not, this is a limitation we should keep in mind in this discussion. If I am wrong, then just ignore the rest of this wall o' text because it is all based on this assumption.

There are several implications to this lack of penetration. The most important in terms of getting quick kills is that you have to have a clear line of fire to the vitals. Consider the pilot. From the upper forward arcs, he's shielded by the upper wing. From below, he's protected by the fuselage. In real life, of course, this canvas and plywood wouldn't do him any good at all, but it's an absolute defense the way the underlying game engine operates (not OFF's fault).

Thus, no matter how high you set your bullet strength, you're not going to hurt the pilot if all your bullets hit some part of the plane before they reach his hit box. OTOH, I would assume that the whole damage system was designed with "normal" bullet strength in mind as realistic. Thus, if you set your bullets on strong, you will do disproportionate damage to the parts you hit per bullet than you really should. Thus, it seems that setting bullets above "normal" is a bad idea. We just have to live with the limitation of the game engine.

I also believe that the reason badly shot-up planes keep on flying more or less straight ahead is because they're so stable. I have yet to encounter any plane in OFF that falls out of the sky hands-off, even without setting the trim. This includes even the Camel. Thus, even with a dead pilot at the controls, the plane might go on straight and level for miles. There's a famous incident where this actually happened to a Quirk, which made a perfect and literally "dead"-stick landing far behind German lines after being shot up badly by 2 entire Jastas.

I think this is something that might need looking into. Maybe make it so that when a pilot dies, he almost always spawns a "ground-seeking" AI pilot to take his place ;). Maybe later look into the inherent stability of such notorious cranks as the Camel and RE8.

On the subject of structural failure from direct gunfire, shooting wings right off doesn't appear to have happened very often at all in real life, so I have no trouble with it being rare in OFF. Bear in mind that to do this you have to hit the important structural part of the wing, which is a tiny fraction of the whole. And if the hit box for this is aligned along the main spar, I doubt strongly that you can hit it from behind, due to the aforementioned inability for bullets to penetrate. All your rounds stop on the canvas near the trailing edge, leaving the spar intact.

As to indirect structural failure, I define this as overstress, either before or after damage. I have broken quite a few of my own airplanes from too much G, too much speed, or getting too close to angry clouds (which appear to inflict both). The breaking point of my airplane appears to decrease as it gets damaged, too. I have seen AI squaddies dive steeper than I could survive and appear unharmed afterwards. So I'm not sure that AI planes can suffer overstress damage at all, let alone this becoming easier for them after I shoot them up.

HOWEVER, I will say that the vast majority of the hits I inflict on the enemy are from good rear hemisphere tracking shots, because I can't shoot well enough to hit them in high deflection :). I have to compensate for poor marksmanship by flying well. The corollary to this is that the vast majority of the hits I suffer are from high deflection snapshots, again because I fly well and don't let the baddies get on my 6 very often. I think this distinction is important in that it has a direct impact on the type and severity of the damage inflicted.

If bullets can't penetrate, then the traditional killing shot from astern is about the worst position from which to inflict fatal damage. You are very unlikely to get bullets into the vitals of pilot, motor, and fuel. The majority of your rounds will splatter harmlessly on the rear fuselage and wing trailing edges. About all you're likely to hurt is the functionality of the rudder and elevators.

OTOH, high-deflection shots usually present the target's entire planform. This enables you to get rounds into the hit boxes for the upper wing spar and aileron control wires, the Albatros radiator, etc. And the engine itself and the pilot are exposed in whole or in part during the pass as the angles change. You'll probably get some hits on the horizontal tail's inner boxes, too, at the end of your burst.

Anyway, these predictions are matched very well by my observations. I sit behind the enemy and hose him down to little apparent effect, while the enemy knocks me out of the sky with quick snapshots. I believe this is all due to the inability of bullets to penetrate. RB2/3D was exactly the same in this regard.

Yes its true that the CFS3 DM does not allow for penetration - but I reinvented the way the DM boxes are placed such that you can hit boxes pertaining to items likely to be hit by 'penetration' from that angle of attack and thus from behind you can hit a large number of items ditto side and front based on the craft construction and layout of vitals.

In OFF instead of the DM being an approximation of the fuselage shape as in CFS3 etc they are actually a group of boxes allowing exposure of internal items/components depending on incoming bullet direction.
These componnts also have a fuselage component of course.

In fact WW1 craft are nearly always penetreted to exact damage on theinternals - and so the DM allocation allows for this - it was a major change and improvement from P2.

However once the bullet has hit one component it stops - but instead of it being only the rear fuse from behind for example it can now be:

Assuming a bullet hits the craft from behind into the rear fusealge

1) Rear Fuselage
2) Rear control wires
3) Pilot
4) Fuel Tank (location dependant)
5) Engine (small %)


HTH

WM
 
I'm not sure the poll, as you've put it, applies particularly well to the issue I originally raised. On "Strongest" I've not been able to make a plane come apart. They go down easier, for sure, but personally that wasn't what I was after in particular (though I do feel they go down more realistically in regard to ease on "Strong").

The poll should ask "Do you want to see planes come apart?" No point asking that one, because I suspect the answer would be 100% "yes". :icon_lol:

Planes do come apart - read some of the posts - I have seen them too.

Its now down to - not enough? or enough? Hence my Poll - remember you are one voice and you are now trying to 'shout above the odds' of the vote?

Do you understand that if we make them come apart more visibly that they are then destroyed and hence easier to down etc?
Having them come apart more often is directly related to DM and bullet strength...

Or do you want wings coming off as a visible placebo effect and they keep flying?
Siggi this is not an easy road I told you that but I am prepared to listen to the %'s

WM
 
Please take the time to vote here chaps as we are looking at whatever adjustments need to be made to DM in next few days...for 1.3


Cheers

WM
 
I still remember as a 10 year old kid, in RB3D, me chasing an Alb CIII (I remember the light blue textures :)). I recall watching him dive and dive...and then suddenly his upper wings got ripped off, detached from the body and he spinned to the ground. I still remember the "SNAP" sound from the game when his wings came off (which was te same sound when you crashed. It sounded like you broke a piece of wood by folding it). I can honestly say that this is the only thing I miss from RB3D. In OFF, I have never seen wings fold in enemy AI. But I would like to add that I voted "Normal". The gun damage and spread are perfect. I just believe that the planes must be just a liiiiiiiiiittle more fragile. Just a little though. Yesterday I got 5 shots on the right wing tip in my Se5 (Just 5!). The rolling ability was vastly reduced. It was so notable that even the mission replay mentioned it. This was just perfect. I assume that the DM modelled a cable being snapped off by just one bullet. This is totally possible (quite unlucky for me though :faint:) and I like it. But I have yet never seen wings coming off or even a mid-air engine explosion! Maybe it is just my bad luck...:( . I dont want the planes to come apart easier. But maybe a "Hollywood" effect or two would be nice.
 
Planes do come apart - read some of the posts - I have seen them too.

Its now down to - not enough? or enough? Hence my Poll - remember you are one voice and you are now trying to 'shout above the odds' of the vote?

Do you understand that if we make them come apart more visibly that they are then destroyed and hence easier to down etc?
Having them come apart more often is directly related to DM and bullet strength...

Or do you want wings coming off as a visible placebo effect and they keep flying?
Siggi this is not an easy road I told you that but I am prepared to listen to the %'s

WM

I'm not trying to shout above any odds. You started this poll in reference to planes coming apart, on the basis that more bullet damage should achieve more plane break-ups (hence you advising me to increase bullet-damage to "Strongest" if I wanted to see planes come apart).

My point is that after testing in over ten QCs with Strongest bullets AND tightest grouping, and in the last test targeting one wing, one section of that wing, on a non-maneouvering 2-seater, I failed to get a single wing to detatch from any plane.

Hence why I think the bullet-strength (and thus how easily a plane goes down) is not relevant, or at least appears to be not relevant, to the question at hand.

Or, to put it another way, in my experience from testing, all the increase in bullet-strength did was make the targets go down a lot quicker. It did not affect the manner in which they went down. They fell down nearly the same as always, on fire or out of control...but still in one piece.

Dare I mention the possibility that maybe you're not playing the sim as much as we are, and are assuming something you put in place is working, when in fact it isn't? Because I'm finding it hard to reconcile what I'm seeing while playing with what you say I should be seeing (wings falling off from anything other than a plane totally exploding).

If you're saying that planes can come apart ONLY if they're made to die more easily, then your poll stands. But if planes can be made to come apart as the result of a TRIGGER, derived from the CURRENT ease/difficulty of making them die, then in THAT case your poll is redundant.

Hope that made sense. :)
 
I'm trying to test, but the last two flights ended when my pilot was killed from getting creamed by a Tripe. And I don't mean shot down! Krumpets need to learn how to fly.

CJ
 
I'm trying to test, but the last two flights ended when my pilot was killed from getting creamed by a Tripe. And I don't mean shot down! Krumpets need to learn how to fly.

CJ

For testing put your QC pilot on invincible. :) Your plane still takes damage but at least you won't have to keep making a new pilot if/when he dies.
 
Guys I have put this up as an honestly as I can - many devs will not post Polls like this for very good reasons... so Siggi try not to get personal - there is no winning this nor is it a contest.

Craft do break up - aim for the wing roots...if they are not doing this in your build then hey I dunno maybe something is broken but whatever the outcome if you want to see them fall apart more often in sim then there is only one way to do it - with DM mods and hence the poll.

I see posts in this thread and evidence in vids and on my rig that prove craft break up so look at your side first?
We are as always constantly evaluating our efforts.

Or contact us in support if you think the sim is broken.
I have nothing further to add or say other than I will look back regularly to see how the votes go.

HTH

WM
 
Winder said:
Craft do break up - aim for the wing roots...if they are not doing this in your build then hey I dunno maybe something is broken but whatever the outcome if you want to see them fall apart more often in sim then there is only one way to do it - with DM mods and hence the poll.

I see posts in this thread and evidence in vids and on my rig that prove craft break up so look at your side first?
Wea are as always constantly evaluating our efforts.

Or contact us in support if you think the sim is broken.
I have nothing further to add or say other than I will look back regularly to see how the votes go.

HTH

WM

Ok then! Ill aim for the wing bases more often. I will try to clip the wings of an Alb in QC right away :running:
 
Guys I have put this up as an honestly as I can - many devs will not post Polls like this for very good reasons... so Siggi try not to get personal - there is no winning this nor is it a contest.

Craft do break up - aim for the wing roots...if they are not doing this in your build then hey I dunno maybe something is broken but whatever the outcome if you want to see them fall apart more often in sim then there is only one way to do it - with DM mods and hence the poll.

I see posts in this thread and evidence in vids and on my rig that prove craft break up so look at your side first?
We are as always constantly evaluating our efforts.

Or contact us in support if you think the sim is broken.
I have nothing further to add or say other than I will look back regularly to see how the votes go.

HTH

WM

Hey Winder, don't you go getting cranky on me. ;) I've not said a single thing that could be even remotely considered as "personal". Ok? :)

For the record, my install is running superbly. I had it go tits-up only once, after pausing, bringing up the map and then trying to zoom it. Repeatedly and in different combinations. And even then the game still ran, just the manager crashed.

I'll start my own poll, that should clarify things. :)
 
I voted Normal. From most of my reading these planes were fairly hard to
bring down as most bullets just passed through the fabric covering. Strong
seems too easy to me.
 
Yes its true that the CFS3 DM does not allow for penetration - but I reinvented the way the DM boxes are placed such that you can hit boxes pertaining to items likely to be hit by 'penetration' from that angle of attack and thus from behind you can hit a large number of items ditto side and front based on the craft construction and layout of vitals.

I appreciate the hard work. I tried my hand at this for a couple of RB2/3D planes back in the day and found it extremely frustrating, on top of being tedious. I can't imagine doing it for all these planes <S>.

What I found most frustrating was that in RB2/3D, the bullets were stopped by the pixels of the model itself, whether there was a hit box there or not. The only hit boxes that bullets ever reached were those exposed beyond the model's surface. I trust CFS3 isn't the same way.

But this is all getting off the topic of bullet strength. I just mentioned the penetration thing because it's natural for folks to think their bullets aren't strong enough when it's really a case of the bullet not getting there at all.

Anyway, I like the "normal" setting. I killed Bruno Loerzer last night with only a total of 9 hits on his black-and-white Albatros, all at "normal" setting. One of them must have struck bone because he never pulled out of his diving turn....
 
Hey Winder, don't you go getting cranky on me. ;) I've not said a single thing that could be even remotely considered as "personal". Ok? :)

For the record, my install is running superbly. I had it go tits-up only once, after pausing, bringing up the map and then trying to zoom it. Repeatedly and in different combinations. And even then the game still ran, just the manager crashed.

I'll start my own poll, that should clarify things. :)

Cranky?
And not Personal?

Lol - did you not say that I 'may not have tested this enough'??
That's pretty personal?
We have a whole team testing this not just me...

Here is a shot of a Be2c that I have shot the wing out of.

WM
 
I appreciate the hard work. I tried my hand at this for a couple of RB2/3D planes back in the day and found it extremely frustrating, on top of being tedious. I can't imagine doing it for all these planes <S>.

What I found most frustrating was that in RB2/3D, the bullets were stopped by the pixels of the model itself, whether there was a hit box there or not. The only hit boxes that bullets ever reached were those exposed beyond the model's surface. I trust CFS3 isn't the same way.

But this is all getting off the topic of bullet strength. I just mentioned the penetration thing because it's natural for folks to think their bullets aren't strong enough when it's really a case of the bullet not getting there at all.

Anyway, I like the "normal" setting. I killed Bruno Loerzer last night with only a total of 9 hits on his black-and-white Albatros, all at "normal" setting. One of them must have struck bone because he never pulled out of his diving turn....

Ouch yes that nasty if the pixels of the skin stop the bullets.

Fortunately that's not the case in OFF and we have quite a sophisticated model - but yes no multi box penetration but as I have pointed out we have worked around that limitation largely in P3.

I think multi damage layers and penetration damage is starting to come into FPS shooters now? - according to my kids.

RoF might have this dunno.

Cheers

WM
 
Cranky?
And not Personal?

Lol - did you not say that I 'may not have tested this enough'??
That's pretty personal?
We have a whole team testing this not just me...

Here is a shot of a Be2c that I have shot the wing out of.

WM

It was a serious question, that maybe you haven't played (not "tested") it as much as us lot, due to having to work on it so much. Nothing "personal" about that at all. :)

And the "cranky" came afterwards, with a winkie too. :icon_lol:

Ah yes, the Be2c, the gossamer butterfly of the stable. I think you'll find that wing came off due to the pilot stepping on it a bit roughly when he got in.:caked:
 
It was a serious question, that maybe you haven't played (not "tested") it as much as us lot, due to having to work on it so much. Nothing "personal" about that at all. :)

And the "cranky" came afterwards, with a winkie too. :icon_lol:

Ah yes, the Be2c, the gossamer butterfly of the stable. I think you'll find that wing came off due to the pilot stepping on it a bit roughly when he got in.:caked:

Well it serves to prove my point that the DM principles works and that's all.
Yes I chose a slow target as its easiest to hit and time is precious.

But really I just dont understand your 180 degree turn on this - you ask about damage scaling in another thread - I respond with a poll - you tell me I am not asking the correct poll - this is about DM?? and now you say all you want is more visible bits falling off?

You have wasted my time. I thought you were being serious lol.

WM
 
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