Flaps causing overstress crash on Razbam Banshees

O

OBIO

Retired SOH Admin
In the thread about the Razbam Sale of A Lifetime, andersel mentioned that he was experiencing crashes (plane, not sim) when he deployed the flaps on his Razbam Banshees. I had not experienced any such events with the planes. I asked him to send me a copy of his aircraft.cfg so I could test it....he did. I put his config in place in the Banshee and did not experience the crash on flap deployment....but then I did a double check of my sim settings and found that I had the stress causes damaged turned off. Once I turned it on, I began having over stress crashes of the Banshee when I deployed flaps. I put my original config back in place...same thing....deploy flaps even one notch and the sim throws out a overstress crash message.

I know I could post this on the Razbam forum and let those guys scratch their heads....but, this is an older package, will soon be retired from their store, and they have bigger fish to fry....so I figured I'd post this here and see if the SOH Collective Mind could find a cause and solution for this problem.

For those who have the Razbam Banshee packages, could you do a test of your planes and see if you get the over stress crash when you deploy flaps (make sure the stress causes damage box is checked). If you do, give us a rundown of how your sim is set up (what mesh you are using, if the airport is stock or modified or add-on), if you have just the base Banshee package or the Expansion or Promotional package.

I would like to find out what is what and get this issue fixed so that the cure can be shared with all who have the Banshee.

OBIO

PS: I mean no slight or insult to Razbam by not posting this on their forum. I know that their customer service is top notch (in my experience with them) and that they would look into this issue. But, I did not want to give them another headache to go along with their current development work...and besides, the SOH Collective Mind has proven itself time and time again and this will be another chance for members here to learn a bit more about the inner workings of the aircraft they fly in terms of config and air file settings.
 
I've been experiencing the same thing, OBiO. Anytime I deploy flaps, whether on approach or even just sitting still on the ramp or runway, I get a crash for my Royal Canadian Navy Banshee (promo pack if I recall). I'm usually running her out of CFB Trenton (freeware add-on) or Oshawa (same) on hops down to the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum at Hamilton (ditto). No mesh that I can remember but I'm using Ultimate Terrain Alaska and Canada Hamilton Photo-Real scenery, GTA scenery. and Ontario landclass by Flight Ontario (all freeware). I've been doing flapless landings with the engines spooled up and the speedbrakes out.

N.
 
Just got through trying a cold start at NAS Alameda with the F2H-2, NARB Oakland variation. I did not get beacon lights on battery power prior to startup, nor on generator power after startup. Did get what sounded like someone rasping over the oxygen mask, though. The same thing happened as reported by others - on the ramp, parking brakes applied and engines at ground idle, moved flaps to first notch and experienced an immediate aircraft crash - sound of impact, all aircraft functions ceased.

Here's the sim and setup - FS9 w/9.1 update, Silver Wings NAS Alameda scenery, 1950s time frame. Am using Cal Classics's period scenery add-ons as well (i.e., taxiways, baggage carts and ground vehicles/airstairs although they do not show at Alameda), although none were present or in view at the time of the problem.

Silver Wings changes scenery resolutions and adds more of the stock scenery at low flight levels; I do not know if it changes any terrain mesh when it is installed.

My sim is set up to detect aircraft stress and crash damage.

I have three RAZBAM Banshee packs installed.

System profile:
AMD Phenom II X4 940
3.01 GHz, 3.25GB RAM
AMD Radeon HD 6800 Series Video Card

Looking forward to the fixing as this appears to be a nice package indeed.
 
Looking at the config file, the first thing that jumped out at me was the dual entry for Flaps. There is a [Flaps.0] and a [Flaps.1] section. I deleted the [Flaps.1] section and it made no difference....so that is ruled out as the cause.

ThinkingManNeil and SSI01,

Thanks for the input....so it is a "common" problem and not just due to andersel and my system set ups.

OBIO
 
Sorry - I was wrong - I have FOUR Banshee packs installed.

Now examining the config file as well.
 
Could this have something to do with the "flap_limit_idle" and "flap_limit_power" settings under "gear warning system" in the config file? If these values are set too low, it would seem lowering the flaps even at idle would cause gear failure and therefore a crash, even sitting still.
 
I do not have this aircraft but:

Have you checked the entries in both flaps sections pertaining to flap damage regardless of what stage of flaps are deployed?

[flaps.0]
type = 1
span-outboard = 0.5
extending-time = 6
flaps-position.0 = 0
flaps-position.1 = 14
flaps-position.2 = 38
damaging-speed = 270
blowout-speed = 295
system_type = 0
lift_scalar = 1
drag_scalar = 1
pitch_scalar = 1
 
Milton et al:
Here's the relevant section from the F2H's config file:

[Flaps.0]
type=1
span-outboard=0.600
extending-time=4.000
system_type=0
damaging-speed=175.000
blowout-speed=275.000
lift_scalar=0.55
drag_scalar=0.500
pitch_scalar=0.600
flaps-position.0=0.000, 0.000
flaps-position.1=25.000, 0.000
flaps-position.2=50.000, 0.000
flaps-position.3=75.000, 0.000
flaps-position.4=100.000, 0.000
 
Here's the relevant data from the "gear warning system" section:

[gear_warning_system]
gear_warning_available=1
pct_throttle_limit=0.099976
flap_limit_power=25.496622
flap_limit_idle=5.042029
 
SSI01 said:
Milton et al:
Here's the relevant section from the F2H's config file:

[Flaps.0]
type=1
span-outboard=0.600
extending-time=4.000
system_type=0
damaging-speed=175.000
blowout-speed=275.000
lift_scalar=0.55
drag_scalar=0.500
pitch_scalar=0.600
flaps-position.0=0.000, 0.000
flaps-position.1=25.000, 0.000
flaps-position.2=50.000, 0.000
flaps-position.3=75.000, 0.000
flaps-position.4=100.000, 0.000
Click to expand...

Well then, that helps :) See if this works. Try putting appropriate numbers in these positions to replace the zeroes.

In the flaps position, if you desginate a second entry after deployment angle, it refers to max speeds for that angle. See the D18S entries below:

[flaps.0] //Trailing Edge Flaps
type = 1
span-outboard = 0.5
extending-time = 5
flaps-position.0 = 0
flaps-position.1 = 15, 121
flaps-position.2 = 30, 116
flaps-position.3 = 45, 111
damaging-speed = 121
blowout-speed = 131
system_type = 0
lift_scalar = 1
drag_scalar = 1
pitch_scalar = 1


Damaging speed of 175 would go into position 1 like this:

flaps-position.1=25.000, 175
Add appropriate values for the rest of the entries.
 
Milton

I replaced the 0s starting with flaps_position.1 with speeds, in both [Flaps.x] sections, and still the overstress crash happened. I removed the second numbers from each flap position, and still the over stress crash happened. Even while sitting on the runway at idle with brakes on.

OBIO
 
OBIO said:
Milton

I replaced the 0s starting with flaps_position.1 with speeds, in both [Flaps.x] sections, and still the overstress crash happened. I removed the second numbers from each flap position, and still the over stress crash happened. Even while sitting on the runway at idle with brakes on.

OBIO
Click to expand...

Removing the zeroes was to be my next option. :-/

Can you post or check the contact points so we can look at speeds:

16 (200)
Damage from Airspeed
The speed above which the landing gear accrues damage (knots). Not used for scrape points or non-retractable gear.

The other thing to look at are the crash contact points.
 
[contact_points]
point.0=1.000000,11.00000,0.000000,-4.956667,1574.803200,0.000000,0.620144,36.300000,0.399013,5.800000,0.897964,3.000000,3.000000,0.000000,0.000000,200.00
point.1=1.000000,-3.733333,-5.916667,-4.950000,1574.803200,1.000000,0.620144,0.000000,0.534392,5.00000,0.489575,4.500000,4.500000,2.000000,0.000000,200.00
point.2=1.000000,-3.733333,5.916667,-4.950000,1574.803200,2.000000,0.620144,0.000000,0.534392,5.00000,0.489575,5.000000,5.000000,3.000000,0.000000,200.00
point.3=2.000000,0.000000,-18.166667,0.000000,1574.803200,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,5.000000,0.000000,0.000000
point.4=2.000000,0.000000,18.166667,0.000000,1574.803200,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,6.000000,0.000000,0.000000
point.5=2.000000,-14.083333,0.000000,-2.500000,1574.803200,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,9.000000,0.000000,0.000000
point.6=2.000000,15.666667,0.000000,-2.500000,163.064797,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,4.000000,0.000000,0.000000
static_pitch=0.499878
static_cg_height=4.381627
gear_system_type=0


[gear_warning_system]
gear_warning_available=1
pct_throttle_limit=0.099976
flap_limit_power=25.496622
flap_limit_idle=5.042029
 
You might also check the ref speeds to ensure the decimals are in the correct places.

[Reference Speeds]
flaps_up_stall_speed = 60.8
full_flaps_stall_speed = 52.1
 
I upped the airspeed limit from 0 to 180 on all contacts and changed the impact speed and location of the nose scrape point. Still get the over stress crash when flaps are deployed.

flaps_up_stall_speed=125
full_flaps_stall_speed=99

These numbers look ok.


OBIO
 
Crash point 6 looks different with that 4th entry.

Try commenting out the crash points to see if they are causing the issues. Others look okay but they are hard to read here.
 
Not much help I realize, but not getting any flap or gear crashes, at least speed wise. Running Accel fsx. Some of these things mght vary from sim to sim. Also insure realism 100 percent and speeds obeyed.

Good luck! T
 
Here's a revised contact point section...cleaned up with all those annoying long decimal place holders removed (rounding is such a useful tool).

[contact_points]
static_pitch = 0.499878
static_cg_height = 4.381627
tailwheel_lock = 0
gear_system_type = 0
max_number_of_points = 7

point.0 = 1, 11, 0, -4.96, 1574, 0, 1, 36.3, 0.399013, 5.8, 0.897964, 3, 3, 0, 180, 200
point.1 = 1, -3.74, -5.92, -4.95, 1574, 1, 1, 0, 0.534392, 5, 0.489575, 4.5, 4.5, 2, 180, 200
point.2 = 1, -3.74, 5.92, -4.95, 1574, 2, 1, 0, 0.534392, 5, 0.489575, 5, 5, 3, 180, 200
point.3 = 2.,0,-18.17,0,1574,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,0
point.4 = 2,0,18.17,0,1574,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,6,0,0
point.5 = 2, -28.3768, 0, 1.9731, 1574, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0
point.6 = 2, 17.8482, 0, -1.4986, 1574, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0
 
Ron was looking at this a few days ago (posting on Facebook), I've left him a message to see if there is any progress; how funny would it be if you guys solved it, so we gave HIM the solution!!
 
OBIO said:
Here's a revised contact point section...cleaned up with all those annoying long decimal place holders removed (rounding is such a useful tool).

[contact_points]
static_pitch = 0.499878
static_cg_height = 4.381627
tailwheel_lock = 0
gear_system_type = 0
max_number_of_points = 7

point.0 = 1, 11, 0, -4.96, 1574, 0, 1, 36.3, 0.399013, 5.8, 0.897964, 3, 3, 0, 180, 200
point.1 = 1, -3.74, -5.92, -4.95, 1574, 1, 1, 0, 0.534392, 5, 0.489575, 4.5, 4.5, 2, 180, 200
point.2 = 1, -3.74, 5.92, -4.95, 1574, 2, 1, 0, 0.534392, 5, 0.489575, 5, 5, 3, 180, 200
point.3 = 2.,0,-18.17,0,1574,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,0
point.4 = 2,0,18.17,0,1574,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,6,0,0
point.5 = 2, -28.3768, 0, 1.9731, 1574, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0
point.6 = 2, 17.8482, 0, -1.4986, 1574, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0
Click to expand...

What happened to this number in point.6?

163.064797
 
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