Flaps causing overstress crash on Razbam Banshees

Milton Shupe said:
What happened to this number in point.6?

163.064797
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I changed it to 1574. That contact point was for the nose of the plane. It was set way low toward the ground (halfway between the nose and the ground) and set with an impact speed of 163.064797. I raised it to match the impact speeds on the gear and other contact points to rule that out as the problem.

OBIO
 
Is there an error message after the crash to indicate what the sim thinks was wrong?

Next try to alias the panel to another aircraft to eliminate potential gauge issues.

If not helpful, then try different, or no textures.

If not helpful, then eliminate sounds (flaps sound could be an issue).
 
I am thinking along the same lines here..depending on system and which gauge_sound.dll you happen to have either the gauges or associated sounds could throw FS for a loop.

STefan
 
In my experience there was no post-flight/sim error message. First incidents were when I tried dropping a notch of flap for takeoff from CFB Trenton and got all the nasty crunchy/clanging noises. Then I tried it on the ramp just after engine start and extending the wings -- same. Then I took off flapless (fine) and flew to Hamilton, slowed down initially for approach with speedbrakes to about 150 kts, lowered gear, and selected one notch (F7) of flaps when things went bad. No flap speed or "Overstressed!" warnings; just crunch.

N.
 
OK Folks - I have four F2H packs on my machine. I've tried them all to check on whether this problem is spread among them. Here are some interesting results:

F2H-2 - the "control" aircraft against which everything else is measured. All switches on instrument panel that should work do work; flaps cause crash.

F2H-2N - Switches on pop-up instrument panels are missing (by this I mean the actual toggle switches themselves; the switch positions are there, but no toggles on them); flaps work and no crash.

F2H-2P - L and R engine instruments are reversed - start left engine, RPM rise shows on right engine RPM gauge; same situation exists with right engine; same switch situation as with F2H-2N; flaps work and no crash.

F2H-3 - Switches on inst panel work; flaps cause crash.

F2H-4 - Switches on inst panel work; flaps cause crash.


I did not check out the reversed RPM gauge anomaly noted with the F2H-2P on either the -3 or the -4, or the 2N. Will do that shortly. Not really an issue here as we are concerned with the flaps first. Would like to reverse this problem after the flaps are dealt with.

All aircraft installed in EXACT accordance with instructions.

Should change name of this bird from "Banshee" to "Rube Goldberg Special."
 
I "removed" the panel, aliased the Banshee to another sound pack....no change. When flaps are deployed, the dreaded crashing sound and the warning text "Aircraft Overstressed".

Still can not figure out how a plane sitting on the runway, engines not even running, can over stress just from deploying one notch of flaps.

'Tis a mystery for sure.

OBIO
 
Second installment of Banshee problems:

F2H-2 - Further examination reveals the inst panel switches move, but they do nothing (except for battery and wing fold) - I have to use keyboard keys to turn on all lights. Autopilot works (controls can be adjusted and has "on/off" sound OK). View over inst panel good. Engine RPM is reversed. Flaps still cause crash.

F2H-2N - No external view over instrument panel. Have to use shift+enter to drop nose to see ahead. Switches still missing, as are autopilot and radio controls. Engine RPMs reversed. Flaps good.

F2H-2P - No external view over instrument panel. Have to use shift+enter to drop nose to see ahead. Switches still missing, as are autopilot and radio controls. Engine RPMs reversed. Flaps good.

F2H-3 - View over instrument panel good. Instrument panel switches present and move, but they do nothing except for battery and wing fold. Have to use keyboard keys to turn on all lights. Autopilot works. Engine RPM reversed. Flaps cause crash.

F2H-4 - View over instrument panel good. Instrument panel switches present and move, but they do nothing except for battery and wing fold. Have to use keyboard keys to turn on all lights. Autopilot works. Engine RPM reversed. Flaps cause crash.

Looks like problems with this bird extend farther than the flaps (no pun intended):mixedsmi:.
 
What have I done? I don't know why, but I thought (silly me) that there would be a relatively simple fix/work-around for a relatively small problem.

I am grateful and humbled that so many of my SOH compadres have commited to trying to figure out what is happening here. I am following this thread with intense interest and only wish that I was posessed of even a smidgen of the knowledge base you-all bring to bear on this and all of our problems. Thank you all so much.

LA
 
Lol I might have to buy this one now just so I can really participate. Too bad the sale just ended.

Ok based on SSI01's observations and the fact that Tim is still getting the crash with the original sound and panel removed I think the next step would be to look at what is different between these.
How are the panels and sounds shared between different models ?? One folder in each variation or some aliasing and some with a unique folder.

Are there any custom programmed gauges in the panel folders ??
Are they the same between the types that work and those that don't ??

Tim, when you removed the panel did you swap out the folder with one from a default airplane or did you remove only the panel.cfg and alias a different one ?

If I had four versions to play with my next step would be to swap the model folder from one that works to one that doesn't with the required changes in the cfg file, and see if that formerly broken one then works.
 
Based on the comments above with the various models, it almost sounds like two of the models have a stray vertice in the flaps that cause a ground strike. Just a possibility as I think the crash box would be larger for the offending models. The 2N and 2P seem okay.
 
Good theory on the ground but the fellas are getting the same in the air even at speeds that are well below any of the flap damage speeds.
Of course I don't dare question your authority on all things modeling.....I am still making boxes in Gmax as I try my usual learning by doing method of
self edumafication.

Cheers
Stefan
 
Milton Shupe said:
Based on the comments above with the various models, it almost sounds like two of the models have a stray vertice in the flaps that cause a ground strike. Just a possibility as I think the crash box would be larger for the offending models. The 2N and 2P seem okay.
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If that is the case then Obio should be able to swap the .air file and aircraft.cfg file with any known working plane. Load up in the sim and drop the flaps. If the plane overstress then it is in the .mdl file.

If it does not over stress I would place the original .air file back in the model and test again to see if the bad data is in the .air file.

Good luck
 
Okay....I did some additional testing to determine which variants of the Banshee exhibited the "flap crash". The F2H-2, F2H-3 and F2H-4 all exhibited the crash, but the F2H-2N and F2H-2P did not. So, I took the aircraft.cfg from the expansion pack and copied it into the F2H-4, copying over the upper part of the F2H-4's config to get the paints and model to show up properly. Still had the crash. Then I took the air file from the -2N/-2P expansion pack and put it into the -4......no crash. Copied the air file from the -2N/-2P expansion into the -2 and -3 Banshees and they no longer exhibited the overstress crash when flaps were deployed.

So, we know now that the problem is not in the panel, gauges, sound, MDL or aircraft.cfg files. It is in the air files.

I will do a side by side comparison of the stock -2, -3, and -4 air files the cause the overstress crash and the -2N/-2P air file that does not and try to find the difference and fix the problem....if I can.

In the mean time folks, simply copy the air file from the -2N/-2P expansion pack into the -2, -3 and -4 Banshee folders and you will be able to fly the Banshee...with flaps....without overstress crashes due to deploying the flaps.

OBIO
 
I don't have the package in question either, but I've been reading this... Tim, I looked at another totally unrelated plane's air file just to see what flap settings were in there and I found something interesting. Record 1101 (Primary Aero) has pos. and neg G limits for flap extension. I'd be willing to bet that either the pos. limit has a minus sign, the neg. limit doesn't, or both.
 
Tom

You were spot on the money...the negative limit did not have the - in front of the number. I added it, and will now test the air file.

Tim

Tested the stock F2H-4 air file with the corrected - sign thingie....no flap crash activity. Works perfectly now.

I will correct the -2 and -3 air files and contact Ron at Razbam and see how he wants to handle the distribution of this fix. If he is cool with it, I will post them here....but I won't do that without his okay because the Banshees are payware planes.
 
Tom Clayton said:
I don't have the package in question either, but I've been reading this... Tim, I looked at another totally unrelated plane's air file just to see what flap settings were in there and I found something interesting. Record 1101 (Primary Aero) has pos. and neg G limits for flap extension. I'd be willing to bet that either the pos. limit has a minus sign, the neg. limit doesn't, or both.
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Great detective work there Tom :)

OBIO said:
Tom

You were spot on the money...the negative limit did not have the - in front of the number. I added it, and will now test the air file.

Tim

Tested the stock F2H-4 air file with the corrected - sign thingie....no flap crash activity. Works perfectly now.

I will correct the -2 and -3 air files and contact Ron at Razbam and see how he wants to handle the distribution of this fix. If he is cool with it, I will post them here....but I won't do that without his okay because the Banshees are payware planes.
Click to expand...

Thanks ... you are the man!
 
Obio - are you getting any of the other anomalies I noted re: switches not showing, engine RPM being reversed, etc? Also, does changing the air file change any of these problems for the better? Thanks
 
andersel said:
What have I done? I don't know why, but I thought (silly me) that there would be a relatively simple fix/work-around for a relatively small problem.

I am grateful and humbled that so many of my SOH compadres have commited to trying to figure out what is happening here. I am following this thread with intense interest and only wish that I was posessed of even a smidgen of the knowledge base you-all bring to bear on this and all of our problems. Thank you all so much.

LA
Click to expand...

Andersel - Not to worry - it's kind of like an airborne rubik's cube, every time you do something to one part of the config or to a file, something else is affected, you've got to run them all down - sometimes the fix is quick and sometimes it's a real pain. If you've ever seen NatLamp's "Vacation" you can get some inkling of what it's like - I'm thinking of when Clark Griswold finally goes 'round the bend and says he's no longer on a vacation, he's on a "quest." This is kind of like that situation. :mixedsmi:
 
SSI01 said:
Obio - are you getting any of the other anomalies I noted re: switches not showing, engine RPM being reversed, etc? Also, does changing the air file change any of these problems for the better? Thanks
Click to expand...

I haven't look at the other problems you listed...but I will. I was focusing on the "aircraft overstress"/flap issue. Now that that issue is resolved, I will look at the other issues you put forth. I have the descriptions saved as a text document on my desk top for easy access and reference as I look at the various models and sort things out.

It's amazing that in the 4 and a half years that the Banshee has been out that these issues were not long ago made known and addressed. Now, I'm not saying anything bad against Razbam....but I am sure that these issues are not new issues, so they should have been found by at least one customer since the plane was released. With the quality of service and support that I know Razbam has had, if these issues had been pointed out by at least one customer in the 4 and a half years, they would have been addressed by Ron and Team long ago. I guess the old adage is true...the squeaky wheel gets the greese. Luckily we have andersel to be our squeaky wheel! Thanks andersel!

OBIO
 
I took a look at the electrical system in the Banshees (it was there...but not activated), and the lights (very few lights on the plane). I will address these issues, work on getting the gauges all squared away (the F2H-2N has a VC with the gauges all in need of better placemet). It will take me a while to get all the kinks and bugs worked out...but I will get them worked out.

OBIO


I am working on the F2H-2 first...as a lot of the tweaks made to it will copy over to the rest of the Banshee line up. I have the lights working as they should...other than the beacons, as the plane has none. Will add beacons to the plane. Had to swap out the stock light switches for ones from one of the stock Cessnas...they work and everyone has them. Will add the GPS500 on a pop up, maybe the stock C-172 radio stack (I use it a lot in my mods as it is easy to use, easy to see, and everyone has it). Will set the lights up with shockwave lights first, then do a config file with stock lights for those who don't have the shockwave lights.

I'm going to bed....after a smoke that is. It's nearly 5:00 AM and I have a truck to work on tomorrow (TODAY actually), a snow blower to start getting into shape for winter and an aunt's computer to tune up and carpet to shampoo.
 
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