Focke Wulf Fw200-A Condor

[aleatorylamp]

...fun with gauges

Hello guys,
Further to the previous post, I thought perhaps separate Suction and Ammeter and Gauges would be better, as the original plane had them - and it fills up the panel a bit more.
Then I put an old frame round the Cessna Directional Gyro.
Here´s a screenshot of the modified Gauges.
Come to think of it, the left and right tanks should have their own gauges, not a dual one. Let´s see...
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Yes, for what I have tried to do, the Ki-61 Propeller seems to have worked out perfectly.
The problem is now one of deciding what EXACTLY what I want this flight model to do because there are a few choices as far as what the simulator model of this aeroplane will be.
I have tried two speed runs at 500 feet and both came out reasonably. (The Propeller adjustments do affect other performance.)
As mentioned earlier, I have been trying to decide if I should start a new thread "Ivan' Prop Shop" or something similar to explain how things work. I know you would benefit, but it is a fair amount of work for a small audience and delays my other development tasks.

Unless someone recommends doing it in a different way, which I will gladly do in that case, I don´t want to use anything from the FS98 FW200 Panel because it´s from the Ju52, so I prefer stock stuff or adapted stock stuff.

How did you decide on that path? This has been my direction from the start which is why so many of my projects are stuck.
By the way, where do MY gauges fall into this? They are not stock and not really adapted stock stuff either.


You new gauge faces look very good..
Just keep in mind that space is limited on a flight simulator panel and realistically many things are cool eye candy but do not have a useful function on a computer.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan! Your gauges are the crown jewels of the panel without which I would at most put in a stock panel and forget it all. At the moment I'm waiting at the doctor but when I get home I'll doctor up the other Cessna fuel gauge. Cheers
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp.

What do you need as far as Fuel Gauges?
I was already working on one for my BV 141B but it is on hold while the Propeller Workshop gets established.
With that gauge, the bitmaps were not the hard part. The programming ran into some problems but I have not spent the time looking at why.
This is a curiosity thing. It is not an offer to build one there are still other things in the queue after the propeller business.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
I´m back, and it´s easier to post on a proper computer than on the mobile phone... The doctor was not too bad either!

I´m glad you got a better working propeller for your Ki-61.
From what I gather, compared to the Stock P51d propeller, you have improved S.L. performance with the same horsepower. Great!

If you want to continue using this thread for a possible propeller prop shop, please do so, especially if you find it easier.
After all, propellers is one of the important themes as regards the development of an improved Condor .air file. The original propeller data I had, turned out totally wrong for this version, which is now improving notably.

You were asking about how I chose this path for Gauges. My original and now discarded path, had always been to use stock or FSFSConv gauges, because I thought they were good enough, but as it turned out, some of them aren´t!

Fortunately, the most important not-good-enough gauges have been extremely well substituted by your great RPM and Boost Gauges. Then, the rest of the gauges that functionally are good enough, are now being modded-up in my shop so that they match the set you made.

I´m glad you like the gauge faces! Maybe I should turn a screw here and there...
All Cut and Paste... and for the letters, I had to build the ones I didn´t have from bits and pieces of those that were on the FSFSConv Gauges... also a bit pallette editing. A crazy way to work, really, but it works.

Your question on the fuel gauges I would need: If possible, that would be separate left and right 500 USG Wing Tanks.
If you are making any, I´d be happy to have some!
If the 500 USG are inconvenient for you, I´ll take anything your curiosity would like to play with.
If you weren´t going to make any, at the moment I´d be modding the two square fuel Gauges of the Cessna 182 RG, giving them the old-fashioned, matching, rounded-square frame.

Update: It won´t work, there´s no space for the old-fashioned frame on the 2 sibe-by-side square Cessna fuel gauges. For the moment I´ll use my dual L/R Tank one until, and if perhaps, you come up with 2 separate Tank gauges.
Here´s a new screenshot of the functional Condor Panel.
I´m thinking of putting in some metal panel lines on the different gauge areas, and colouring the panel in a darker bluish-grey, not so blue as it is now.

OK, then!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

I´m glad you got a better working propeller for your Ki-61.

From what I gather, compared to the Stock P51d propeller, you have improved S.L. performance with the same horsepower. Great!

If you want to continue using this thread for a possible propeller prop shop, please do so, especially if you find it easier.
After all, propellers is one of the important themes as regards the development of an improved Condor .air file. The original propeller data I had, turned out totally wrong for this version, which is now improving notably.

Hello Aleatorylamp,

I believe the propeller is better. It has fewer silly things in it as I will describe whenever I get a proper Propeller thread started.
There is a very slight performance improvement at Sea Level but it is because of a better match of the Power Coefficient and Efficiency Tables.
I have not actually increased the Efficiency values and in fact the values are mostly decreased. This is not the place for this kind of detail.
It belongs in a different thread.

The reason why we are having so many discussions about propellers here is because this Condor project of yours is what restarted the work on Propellers. (I was working on Gauges before this Condor project began....)

....So what exactly did the FW 200 Fuel Gauges look like?
Were they really using a single 500 USG tank per wing?
Were the markings in Liters or Gallons?

My issue was getting a single gauge to read whatever the selected tank was as the stock gauges do.
The issue with FS98 gauges is that there are only certain tanks that are readable.
For more immediate projects, I need to build an Elevator Trim Gauge and a working Radiator Temperature Gauge and organise everything before I forget what I have and have not done.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

The Agony of Choice

Hello Ivan,
Oh Dear! I don´t know if this is good or bad... It seems I am to blame (yet again!) for putting your technicians into Multitasking Mode. Apart from making gauges they are now also doing propeller work again. Hopefully you are not getting stressed out.

Update. Added comment: Very interesting, the better match achieved between Thrust Coefficient and Efficiency Tables. You had already mentioned the need for this before, which I found very intriguing but difficult to grasp.

You had asked about Condor Cockpit Instrumentation. I was trying to avoid so much detail, but apparently it is needed. The details are from the documentation supplied with the FS8 and the FS9 Fw200-A Condors by Mr. Hauke Keitel.
Here goes (!!):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Main Magnetic Compass
Airspeed Indicator
Altimeter
Turn/Bank Coordinator
Vertical Speed
Artificial Horizon

Engine Gauges 1-4, in 4 columns:
RPM, ATA, Oil pressure, Oil temp/fuel flow
4 Throttle levers
4 Propeller levers (Pitch: Fine - Coarse)
4 mixture levers

Gear lever + Gear position indicator
Flap lever + Flap Position indicator
1 Handbrake lever
Pitot heat
Ignition
Starter selector 1/2 - 3/4
Starter 1/2 - 3/4
Hydraulic and brake pressure gauge

Autopilot + Autopilot Master Switch (Autopilot = Auto Steering Machine?)
Servos for Course and Altitude steering (linked to Autopilot/Auto-Steering Machine?):
-3 Trim Indicator Gauges (Elevator, Rudder and Ailerons)
-3 Trim switches

Tank selector Gauge;: 2 levers side by side, vertical movement:
Top to bottom, 5 positions: Take-off Tank, L/R Wing Tank, L/R Aux Tank, All, Off.
Tank Fuel Quantituy Gauges:
-Take-off: 110 Litres (29 USG)
-Wing L/R(Main tanks) 900 Litres each (238 USG)
-Fuselage L/R (Aus Tanks) 770 Litres each (203 USG)
(Total: 3450 Litres = 911 USG)

Navigation:
-ADF (1-10-100 Khz)
-Nav1 Radio (VOR1+DME - no glidepath)
-Com1 Radio
-RMI with OBS (VOR1 related)
-Repeater Compass (Directional Gyro - Heading Indicator) linked to Autosteering
-Autosteering machine
-Altitude Selector
-Heading Bug linked to autosteering.

Suction Indicator
Outside Air Temperature
Altimeter (rough)
Clock/Stopwatch
Stall Warning
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I bet you are saying "Oh, no!...why did I ask...!!"

Updated paragraph:
I have more or less decided on the gauges to put in - I´ve only added a flap-lever next to the throttle quadrant.
Quite a few of the gauges on the list are impossible for CFS1, and a couple perhaps only clutter things up.
For the moment, I don´t know if I want propeller pitch or mixture levers. I have to see if it is better to use the Generic 4-engined thrust-lever quadrant that includes them. Please see screenshot. The levers differ from those on the original plane, but they´re there. Plus, of course, the area to the right is not the co-pilot´s, like in reality, but the Navigator and Radio Operator´s place. Also, the default equipment looks rather modern, but for want of anything else... The Ju52 equipment is nothing like the real stuff anywayon this plane. So: Instead of a 100% realistic panel, a functional, First Knight Film Uniforms type of thing could be more convenient, unless everyone disagrees, and then I´ll change it!!

At the moment I´m deciding whether to get another photo for the Panel Bitmap that shows the leather sunshade covers strapped to the upper Cockpit Window Spars. The viewing angle of the photo isn´t as good as the one I got the current bitmap from, but then the greyscale colour curve is not so good on the one I have now...

Thanks for your attention and motivating comments!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[aleatorylamp]

Enhanced Generic-4 Throttle Cuadrant Console

Hello again,
Inspiration comes in drips and trickles - never all at once.
The throttle cuadrant on the real plane is on a console attached to the middle of the panel.
Here´s a partial-view screenshot. For this functional panel, it looks better, I think.

I made the all the handles on the Generic-controls.4.gau levers bigger, and the black throttle ones, white.
Then I thought of making them all white, but it could get confusing. A bit of colour looks good...
On the original plane, they were all white, and it wasn´t so confusing because they had a different layout.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Guten Tag Aleatorische Lampe,

Your panel and instruments look quite good.

It doesn't sound to me from your description that you are really needing a 500 Gallon gauge for Left and Right Mains.
It is probably more like a 900 liter Left and Right Main Gauge.
I don't have the ability to build Aux Tank Gauges yet. Need to do more reading and experimenting first.
I will be needing those on both the B-25 Mitchell and the P-38 Lightning.

By the way, the "Start" fuel was a pretty common type of thing even on later German aeroplanes.
It wasn't really for Take-Off; It was just intended to have a bit of low octane high volatility fuel that would make engine starts easier.
The stuff was much too low octane to use at the high power settings needed to get the aeroplane off the ground.

- Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan, Ivanovich Ivanov!

Thanks for your comment about the panel. I´m glad you say it´s looking quite good.

I think I´ll keep the throttle quadrant with all the other levers. I tried out the pitch levers higher up, and found there´s a positio for the lever that optimizes RPM, which is of course the whole point for a manual propeller. A 2-position propeller would obvioously also be optimizing within its limitations, but its workings would be different.
I´m just working on the handle shapes.

You are right about the 900 Litre left/right main tanks. That would be fantastic.
I wasn´t thinking when I simply said two 500 USG tanks - that was because the total was 911 USG and I rounded off after dividing by 2... So sorry!

With the "Start" fuel you could be right, especially for the wartime Fw200-C, that used the 100 Octane fuel, so they´d be economizing with 87 octane fuel on the ground. However, "Start" in German means Take-off. Starting the engine would be "anlassen". The flying instructions of the model I got the gauge details from, mentions using the "Start" tank for engine start-up, and take-off as well, and switching to the main tanks after take-off for initial climb and onwards.
The early civil Condors all used 87 Octane fuel anyway.

I´ll investigate on the different FS98 tank types available and see what gauges react to the L/R aux types and a central one for the "Start" fuel.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

You are of course right regarding Start and I knew that. (As in Start und Notleistung which shows up in many places.) I just wasn't sure what your documentation was stating.
I believe the typical fuel used in those little tanks for engine starting was closer to about 60 octane but it has been a while since I saw the documentation.
I never paid it much attention because for flight simulator purposes it really had no significance in the same way that knowing how many Coffman cartridges were for ready use has no real meaning.
It didn't matter much in any case because 29 US Gallons is not enough to warm up your engines and finish the take-off run anyway.
Did the Germans use the C3 and B4 Fuel designations at the time this FW 200 was being developed?
The issue here is that the designations by each country did not necessarily match up.
The German C3-96 or C3-100 fuel was actually much higher octane than US 100 octane.
My source for this information is the test report for a captured FW 190F or G model which stated if I remember right that it was equivalent to US 115/130 Grade.
One has to wonder if their B4/87 fuel was better than its designation would indicate.

Did you notice that your Dual Fuel Gauge looks to be the same form as my Coolant Temperature Gauge?
This kind of thing makes for great confusion when multiple gauges all look alike and the print is too small to read....
....But it also makes for easier development of a new gauge (if I can figure out the programming behind it).
Glad you have a working version for now.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Upto now I haven´t found any other reference as regards the type of fuel, but I´ll continue looking.

I was just collecting the total possible tanks in CFS1: Left and Right Main Tanks, Centre 1 and 2, and a fifth one, Aux 2.
Different stock models use different combinations of these, maybe two or three at a time. Putting all the tank selectors and tank gauges works, and is of course extremely confusing - and you don´t really know what is doing or showing what!!

Using all 5 tanks would be the ideal combination for the Condor - Main Tanks for the 900-litre Wing tanks, Centre 1 and 2 for the 770-litre fuselage tanks, and the Aux-2 tank for the 110 litre start-up tank.

Maybe 29 gallons (110 litres) for four 720 Hp engines is a bit small to include the take-off run. The confusion may have arisen in the interpretation of the original documents. I´d have to work it out.
Consumption was 230 grammes per Horsepower/Hour per engine, and the take-off run appears to have been 420 meters.

OK, then. Slowly things start taking shape. Interesting...!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

It would be more like using all 9 Tanks.

The Available Tanks are as follows:
525 - Left Main
526 - Right Main
527 - Left Aux
528 - Right Aux
529 - Left Tip
530 - Right Tip
531 - Center 1
532 - Center 2
533 - Center Aux

From Hubbabubba's quite extensive and excellent study (which I bumped recently when I was about to work on Fuel Gauges), There is a certain order that the tanks will be expended by default.

As a summary: (Hubbabubba, Please advise if I am incorrect)
The Tanks can be divided into three groups:
Left, Right, and Center

The default (No selector used or if the 'E' key is pressed to start engines) is to draw from all of the three groups simultaneously if they are available.
If a group has no representatives, it will not be drawn from (obviously).

The Left Group will be expended in the following order:
Left Tip <-- Not sure about this one
Left Aux
Left Main

The Right Group will be expended in the following order:
Right Tip <-- Not sure about this one either
Right Aux
Right Main

The Center Group will be expended in the following order:
Center Aux
Center 2
Center 1

I personally have never had occasion to use all of the available tanks especially the Right / Left Tip Tanks, so I am not absolutely certain how they work.

One of the reasons I do not like to use the 'E' Key to start engines is because it automatically resets the fuel selection to draw from all groups.
Using the Magneto and Starter Switch does not do reset the fuel selection but the default when the simulator is started is to draw from all groups until a fuel selector is used.

I had to check out a few of these things because my plan was to do a couple really fancy fuel selectors along with a cross-feed selector for my twin engine projects. After looking at it a while, I realise I probably don't know enough to do it yet and will just use the automatic selection which is the recommended order of use anyway. If I figure it out, it may come out in a later version of the twins but that is on the assumption that the FIRST version actually gets completed.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
That´s interesting. I only found the first two and last three on the list on the stock planes, and thought that L/R Aux and L/R Tip tanks were only available in FS98. Maybe I didn´t look far enough?

Of course, the lack of convenient selector and tank gauges limits users to automatic feed for anything outside the tank combinations available in Stock models.

The nearest to a usable combination for multi-engined planes seems to be the P51d tanks: L/R Main tanks and Centrer.

I found that the FS98 Sopwith Camel fuel gauge (labeled "Air" because of the necessary air pressure for the feed), as well as both of the Extra-300 tanks (named Acro and Wing Tanks, but with emerging text saying Left and Right fuel tanks), will read the total fuel of ANY tanks defined, any tank capacity will be shown full at the end of the needle arc.

Then, Left and Right tanks for the B737-400 (Numerical readout in lbsx1000 and x100 if under 1000 lb), and also the Cessna 182 Left and Right Tanks (anything above 150 USG is shown as full by the needle), ONLY report the contents of L/R Wing or Main Tanks.

For single engined planes, stock models offer a variety of useful combinations one can use if one doesn´t like automatic feeding, but that stops with 2, 3 or 4 engines, as there are also no Magnetos and Starters, so I am really looking forward to your tank and fuel selector gauges.

I wish I could be of assistance, but I don´t programme in "C" - The only thing I do is alter bitmaps on existing gauges using "Resident Hacker" and a simple Photo-Retouching programme.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Regarding Multi Engine Aeroplanes:
Both my Lightning and Mitchell currently use L/R Main and L/R Aux Tanks.
Both also had the option of L/R Tip Tanks but I declare them NOT to be installed on my models.
With the Mitchell, the outboard wing tanks were not often used on operations but the filler caps are obvious.
The later models of the P-38J and L both had extra fuel tanks installed where the Intercoolers were on the Early Lightning.

Fuel Selectors will be a while. Fuel Gauges hopefully will arrive sooner.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
How silly, I never thought of looking into your Lightning.
Thanks for the prompt! I´ll get the two Auxiliary Tanks from there then.

I had just made a File Dump with AirUpdate, with the intention of copying
and editing some tank lines to make the missing tank types, and updating
the .air file with them, but apparently the programme doesn´t work like
that - it doesn´t create .air file code other than altering existing parameter
values. Additions are then only allowed as usual, copying records from an
existing .air file via the clipboard.

So, I´ll get them from your Lightning then! Thank you very much again.
What mystifies me is how you managed to get them...

No hurry for the fuel tank and selector gauges!

Update:
Very nice!... My technicians have just fitted your Auxiliary Tanks, and were pleasantly surprised that their fuel quantity is included in the dual L/R Cessna Tank gauge readout.
Now, the needle starts moving downards at just over 8% fuel of Main+Aux tanks, as opposed to 17% with just the Main Tanks, so it´s usable. It gives the readout of the last 155 litres in the tanks, not including the Start-up Tank.
This has just given me a better idea: I´ll try to fix and calibrate the two Extra-300 tank-bitmaps, as these give a full arc read-out from empty to full of ALL specified tanks, not only Main and Aux. The Start-up Tank´s 110 litres would be there too!
Entering Zero Fuel for Main and Aux Tanks, the Start-up Tank being defined in Centre-1, it seems that the 2 Extra-300 Fuel gauges either divide the 29 USG content of the centre tank between the two gauges, or show it in both.
I´ll have to figure that out in more detail once I have calibrated the dials for the full capacity of the Condor´s tanks.

Uptade 2: Correction!
The 2 Extra-300 do NOT include any of the other tanks (Centre 1 and 1, and Aux 2), but at least the gauges give a full arc readout of the total contents of both Main and Both Aux tanks, which is a help. It just means the 110 litres in the Centre 1 tank will give a little more time before running out of fuel once the main tank gauges show empty.
The only remaining test would be L/R Tip Tanks, but I don´t know where to get them.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

So, I´ll get them from your Lightning then! Thank you very much again.

What mystifies me is how you managed to get them...

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Glad they work for you. I guess that Lightning was good at least for spare parts!
Originally about 15 years ago, I figured out what the structure was for a AIR File fuel tank record and just wrote a C Program to create a full set of records in a separate AIR file that I could extract the particular tank I wanted. Note that the Mitchell has had these tanks and has been around for a very long time.
These days it is even easier. For a particular tank, I can generate an AIR File with just that tank in about 2 minutes by just hex editing an extracted Fuel Tank record.

The 2 Extra-300 do NOT include any of the other tanks (Centre 1 and 1, and Aux 2), but at least the gauges give a full arc readout of the total contents of both Main and Both Aux tanks, which is a help. It just means the 110 litres in the Centre 1 tank will give a little more time before running out of fuel once the main tank gauges show empty.
The only remaining test would be L/R Tip Tanks, but I don´t know where to get them.

It won't actually work that way.
If you have any tanks in the Center group, they will be drawn from at the same time as the Left and Right groups but because of the small capacity will be empty way before the others.
Did your FW 200 actually have Tip tanks?
If so, I will ask my technician to box up a set and send them to you tonight.
Keep in mind that we have never used them, so I don't really know how they will work.

By the way, we have an aleatory lamp in our light above the dining table.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Here we are waiting at the vet with an ill cat.
No, the Fw200 had no tip tanks - I was just seeing if I could separate the starter tank Center1 from the rest but there´s no way. Then, the dual Cessna fuel gauge could serve as an indication of reserve fuel. Anyway, it's better with the 2 Extra-300 Tanks. No tip tanks needed, thanks a lot for your offer!

Update later at home again.
Here´s a screenshot of the improved fuel-gauges and throttle-cuadrant handles on the panel. Eye-candy!
(Any suggestions as always, are very welcome!)
Apart from programming gauges, I see from the way you described for adding tanks to an .air file, it is yet another fine example of how useful it is to know "C". Hmmm....

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

There is no real magic to the C Language. It just happens to be what I know best and is my solution to things whenever some programming is a possible solution. This is the old idea that if you hire a man with a hammer, then every problem starts looking like a nail.
The C program was serious overkill for the task involved. It was probably not run more than a half dozen times and I don't even know where there is a copy any more.
The current solution of going into an AIR file with a hex editor is much easier though there is a slight chance of really messing things up because of several patterns matching what one is trying to find.
The way I avoid that is to have just a single record in the entire AIR file and then the record number is in the first two bytes of the file. No need to search at all. Actually it is a 4 byte integer, so it should be the first 4 bytes, but they will be arranged so that the first two contain the actual value you want to edit (Little Endian).

If you read through Hubbabubba's thread, one of the ideas he mentions is to observe the order of use and completely ignore the nominal designations of the fuel tanks. Just because it says Right Main doesn't mean it has to be in the Right Wing.... There might be a worthwhile arrangement.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Sounds complicated for someone with no "C" nor Hex-editing experience, but fascinating!

Something just occurred to me to do with a Hex-Editor:
As AirEd gives the Possibility to Hex-Edit each line in a record, including the Index number
line, it could perhaps be possible, if one knows the necessary Hex values, to change the
index numbers of the two first tank records 525 and 526, to read 527 and 528, also
changing name of the two recors from Main to Aux, then save the .air file, and after that
copy over the normal Tank records 525 and 526 from another .air file with AirEd using the
Clipboard...

Anyway, the Condor panel is quite functional and looks, as you said, quite good.
I´m going to try to improve the artwork for the spars and stuff, and then SCASM the Virtual
Cockpit (trying to get a moving co-pilot´s head too!).

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp.