For real : Alphasim c-17 is out

[Txmmy83]

final version would be a must purchase product but at the moment it is not!

I wait for the finished version!


BR
Tom
Long term Alphasim Customer

 

[UKMIL]

well the UKMIL one HAS a VC and is out now too, although only to CLUB MEMBERS for BETA testing. it will be freely available very soon tho:ernae:

 

[BS-CAT]

well the UKMIL one HAS a VC and is out now too, although only to CLUB MEMBERS for BETA testing. it will be freely available very soon tho:ernae:

I'm waiting for the free version...

 

[polygoon]

A year from now, will the average add-on cost $100?

I think you opened up a very interesting question here.

I remember buying CD's from the VIP Group with dozens of aircraft on them for FS 98. The wheels were octagons and the landing gear popped in or out and had no wells, the flaps were not yet animated, neither were the control surfaces, and the canopies were still opaque and no doors were there to open.
At that time no one even knew what a vc is.
I remember a comment on the Hercules that was included in that package, that it took over 100 hours to put that thing together.

If we fast forward to today - 100 hours is just enough to model, animate and texture the landing gear!

Customer demand is driving the developers to try harder and harder, there are guys out there now who visit airports to get into cockpits of airplanes armed with a ruler to measure every button in the cockpit.
The time that is necessary to put an aircraft together for FS these days is absolutely insane and it will only get worse.
Buying the Hercules package from a well known developer today will already set you back about $150.00, never mind $100.00 a year from now.

Any FS add-on today has to be an absolute work of art before people even want to look at it. Every screw has to be painted, and in the vc even modeled, man I tell you, this is getting absolutely nuts.

Back in the days of FS 98 it took one guy over 100 hours (2 work weeks) to churn out a state-of the art FS model, now it takes a team of six to eight guys half a year, that's an increase in terms of man-hours of 140 to 1

But, as you are all aware, the price of add-ons has not risen 140 times. That gives you an idea who has to swallow that difference in work versus income. It is certainly not the customer.
Even if the price goes up five times (lets say from $20 in FS98 days to $100 today), the developers work 28 times harder for every buck than they did in the good old FS98 days (if my math is right...:redf: ).

Now, that's for a model that costs $100.
But as you will have noticed, the C-17 does not cost $100.

I let you figure out, how much less the developers get per buck in this case...

So, my point is - even if you don't feel like buying the C-17 right now, at least be easy on the guys at Alpha.

 

[Henry]

my point is - even if you don't feel like buying the C-17 right now, at least be easy on the guys at Alpha.

I agree with that statement
H

 

[fsafranek]

I let you figure out, how much less the developers get per buck in this case...

You are absolutely right. We could make more money sewing t-shirts in Thailand.
:ernae:

 

[gajit]

Any FS add-on today has to be an absolute work of art before people even want to look at it. Every screw has to be painted, and in the vc even modeled, man I tell you, this is getting absolutely nuts.

Im sorry Polygoon - but this is about simulation so i do expect as much as possible to be "simulated" with some reasonable accuracy. If I dident I would "play" other flying "games" that did not have that emphasis.

Of course our expectations are higher - just as well or we would all be still flying about in FS8.

 

[gajit]

You are absolutely right. We could make more money sewing t-shirts in Thailand.
:ernae:

Hi Frank - So if its not about money - why do it? Is it for the creative process and the satisfaction that should bring?

 

[Kiwikat]

Back in the days of FS 98 it took one guy over 100 hours (2 work weeks) to churn out a state-of the art FS model, now it takes a team of six to eight guys half a year, that's an increase in terms of man-hours of 140 to 1

But, as you are all aware, the price of add-ons has not risen 140 times. That gives you an idea who has to swallow that difference in work versus income. It is certainly not the customer.
Even if the price goes up five times (lets say from $20 in FS98 days to $100 today), the developers work 28 times harder for every buck than they did in the good old FS98 days (if my math is right...:redf: ).

I don't find that to be a valid comparison here. There are many things in the real world that haven't increased in price, but they have definitely increased in quality. Take a look at the machine you used to type your message on. Take a look at the machine you used to type your first ever message on. You probably paid a similar amount if not MORE for the earlier machine.

Development times may be increasing, but talent is as well. If you couple that talent with good workflow and a workstation that can keep up, a lot of work can be done in a short amount of time. A good modeler can put together a top notch external model in a week or so. Of course now we have more complex things like VC's, 3D gauges, and more textures to do that we didn't previously need. I'd venture to guess a modern-day hit addon sells more than something back from FS98 too... maybe not "140 times" more, but you get the point.

Back on topic though... I'm very disappointed in what's happened to the C-17. I first joined the Alphasim beta team to test it, and I'm not at all impressed by what has come from it in the last 2 years. It is a terrible idea for any developer to release a product that is not finished. Especially when it is one that is as highly anticipated as this.

 

[shaunthesheep]

Interesting point you make there Kiwikat. But I reckon it would take more than a 21 year old Firebug Studio Beta Tester with little REAL work experience to make it.

 

[michael davies]

Hi Frank - So if its not about money - why do it? Is it for the creative process and the satisfaction that should bring?

I've no idea, we must be crazy LOL.

Regarding the C-17 stratergy.......I'm sure it'll become clear in the future :isadizzy:

Best

Michael

 

[Kiwikat]

Interesting point you make there Kiwikat. But I reckon it would take more than a 21 year old Firebug Studio Beta Tester with little REAL work experience to make it.

Yes. That's why I am a tester. I do what I can to help. If I knew how to model and code flightsim stuff, I'd be doing it!

 

[centuryseries]

A good modeler can put together a top notch external model in a week or so.

One week? You're having a laugh aren't you?!!

I thought there was the "unwritten rule" of not bashing other developers?

It's okay when it suits some! :isadizzy:

Frank, about that Sewing business in Thailand, you got any vacancies?

 

[Kiwikat]

I thought there was the "unwritten rule" of not bashing other developers?

You guys simply LOVE interpreting things that way. You really need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Absolutely nowhere did I specify ANYBODY in particular. Read what I said, not what you want it to say.

 

[fsafranek]

Hi Frank - So if its not about money - why do it? Is it for the creative process and the satisfaction that should bring?

Speaking only for myelf I would have to say it is because my background is in quality assurance and being involved with the development side of a project I can try to influence that quality. And because I have too many titles still in the catalog to just walk away from it all. So it is about the money a little. But mostly because I like being really close to ground zero of a creative endeavor. Not sure it that makes any sense? Pretty much what you said I think.
:ernae:

 

[Mickey D]

One week? You're having a laugh aren't you?!!

I thought there was the "unwritten rule" of not bashing other developers?

It's okay when it suits some! :isadizzy:

Frank, about that Sewing business in Thailand, you got any vacancies?

We've got some sweat shops Oop North that pay more than developing models Century Series. I can put you in touch?

 

[centuryseries]

You guys simply LOVE interpreting things that way. You really need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Absolutely nowhere did I specify ANYBODY in particular. Read what I said, not what you want it to say.

"I'm not at all impressed by what has come from it in the last 2 years. It is a terrible idea for any developer to release a product that is not finished."

I rest my case your honour.

End of arguement I haven't got time I got to get my model finished in a week. (subtle British humour there).

Move on eh :ernae:

 

[centuryseries]

We've got some sweat shops Oop North that pay more than developing models Century Series. I can put you in touch?

It's enough to pay for half a round of drinks for two people :ernae:

 

[Lateral-G]

I think you opened up a very interesting question here.

I remember buying CD's from the VIP Group with dozens of aircraft on them for FS 98. The wheels were octagons and the landing gear popped in or out and had no wells, the flaps were not yet animated, neither were the control surfaces, and the canopies were still opaque and no doors were there to open.
At that time no one even knew what a vc is.
I remember a comment on the Hercules that was included in that package, that it took over 100 hours to put that thing together.

If we fast forward to today - 100 hours is just enough to model, animate and texture the landing gear!

Customer demand is driving the developers to try harder and harder, there are guys out there now who visit airports to get into cockpits of airplanes armed with a ruler to measure every button in the cockpit.
The time that is necessary to put an aircraft together for FS these days is absolutely insane and it will only get worse.
Buying the Hercules package from a well known developer today will already set you back about $150.00, never mind $100.00 a year from now.

Any FS add-on today has to be an absolute work of art before people even want to look at it. Every screw has to be painted, and in the vc even modeled, man I tell you, this is getting absolutely nuts.

Back in the days of FS 98 it took one guy over 100 hours (2 work weeks) to churn out a state-of the art FS model, now it takes a team of six to eight guys half a year, that's an increase in terms of man-hours of 140 to 1

But, as you are all aware, the price of add-ons has not risen 140 times. That gives you an idea who has to swallow that difference in work versus income. It is certainly not the customer.
Even if the price goes up five times (lets say from $20 in FS98 days to $100 today), the developers work 28 times harder for every buck than they did in the good old FS98 days (if my math is right...:redf: ).

Now, that's for a model that costs $100.
But as you will have noticed, the C-17 does not cost $100.

I let you figure out, how much less the developers get per buck in this case...

So, my point is - even if you don't feel like buying the C-17 right now, at least be easy on the guys at Alpha.

I can't say I agree with your logic.

Yes, we demand and expect more because that's what we've been accustomed to over the past few years.

Other developers are able to bring a superior product to market and still be able to keep the price down (and not whine about it). This is what a market driven economy does. By your logic price increases should be commensurate with the level of complexity; then we should be paying 4 to 5x's more for the very PC's we use or for the game software installed on them. How many copies of FSX would MS sell at $150 a pop?

If a developer feels he only way to recoup their investment is by passing it on to the consumer then they will be shortly out of business. Because I guarantee you there WILL be another developer out there that will work to keep the costs down so they can sell a product. That's how it works in the world. You, as a developer/manufacturer, learn to work smarter, faster, more efficiently to keep up.

This has been discussed ad-infinitum before but there is a price point at which people just won't buy an add-on for the flight sim. Sure there will be a few that buy but not enough to support continued sales or demand for future products. AS seems to keep pushing the envelope on this (last time was with their A-6 Intruder).

Please don't construe that I'm bashing AS. They are free to charge whatever price they feel is warranted. I, as a consumer, am allowed to voice my opinion (such as I would if it were any other product manufacturer) and choose whether to buy or not to buy.

If, as you predict, add-on aircraft reach $150 or more per add-on then I cannot see much of a future for that particular aspect of the hobby. IMO that is just too much to justify spending on a casual pastime. Others may feel differently with regard to their disposable income but I fear they are a small minority.

-G-

 

[fsafranek]

It's enough to pay for half a round of drinks for two people :ernae:

Just give me a glass to cry in.