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Microprose B-17 Flying Fortress Released

I've just been looking at the screenshots at Just Flight's page:

https://www.justflight.com/product/microprose-b17g-flying-fortress

I hadn't fully grasped the Alcad stencil issue - that is bizarre! I know it's early access, but who on earth thought that was a good idea in the first place ? And the navigator the size of a child's doll ! The whole interior, along with the crew members, looks like something from Medal of Honour or similar.
 
Javis said:
How is "early access" subject to the standpoint of a developer ? A developer has access to the project from the very start up until the final release. I.e. 'early access' doesn't apply to the developer. Only to the customer who, in this case, has to pay for it too.
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What I meant is that early access is usually employed for one of the following reasons (more may apply):

a) the developer is looking for an immediate influx of cash to fund further development and/or to bring food on the table right now;
c) to appease the community and to compensate for long delays in releasing the product or;
c) (in a more cynical way) to do a quick cash grab and then disappear.

I don't know who is behind the current MicroProse, but we are not dealing with that big software house from the 1980s. However, when a big publisher/developer like Just Flight supports and promotes this product, it usually means they have enough faith in this developer that (s)he delivers a saleable product. It's not a 100% guarantee, but a fair indication that this product will be developed further. Whether the end product is to your liking is ultimately up to you. Also take into account that the FS-market largely consists of buyers who don't require/expect a plane to be modeled to the nines. Those who do are a minority within the FS-market.
 
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Hi,

On FSX, we could have hoped to build a correct aircraft according to the standards of their SDK in 3 months. With MSFS, this time has greatly lengthened and with MSFS 2024 it’s even worse since the fast reload option was modified and without hope of going back (that is to say having the same option as MSFS).
As a developer, to create such an aircraft with so many details and complexity, one cannot hope to do it in less than a year of work.
Staying for a year without any money coming in is unthinkable unless you have other, simpler parallel projects that allow you to live.
After the experience I was able to acquire by working with GAS, I noticed all the ancillary fees that differentiated freeware from payware and I understand this developer.
 
Lawman said:
What I meant is that early access is usually employed for one of the following reasons (more may apply):

a) the developer is looking for an immediate influx of cash to fund further development and/or to bring food on the table right now;
c) to appease the community and to compensate for long delays in releasing the product or;
c) (in a more cynical way) to do a quick cash grab and then disappear.

I don't know who is behind the current MicroProse, but we are not dealing with that big software house from the 1980s. However, when a big publisher/developer like Just Flight supports and promotes this product, it usually means they have enough faith in this developer that (s)he delivers a saleable product. It's not a 100% guarantee, but a fair indication that this product will be developed further. Whether the end product is to your liking is ultimately up to you. Also take into account that the FS-market largely consists of buyers who don't require/expect a plane to be modeled to the nines. Those who do are a minority within the FS-market.
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Don't forget getting a large group of non-employee beta testers.
 
Lawman said:
What I meant is that early access is usually employed for one of the following reasons (more may apply):

a) the developer is looking for an immediate influx of cash to fund further development and/or to bring food on the table right now;
c) to appease the community and to compensate for long delays in releasing the product or;
c) (in a more cynical way) to do a quick cash grab and then disappear.

I don't know who is behind the current MicroProse, but we are not dealing with that big software house from the 1980s. However, when a big publisher/developer like Just Flight supports and promotes this product, it usually means they have enough faith in this developer that (s)he delivers a saleable product. It's not a 100% guarantee, but a fair indication that this product will be developed further. Whether the end product is to your liking is ultimately up to you. Also take into account that the FS-market largely consists of buyers who don't require/expect a plane to be modeled to the nines. Those who do are a minority within the FS-market.
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a) that might be it..
b) i bet that didn't work as expected. Might even work the other around..
c) hmmm.... i bet that's not the one, in any case i *hope* it's not. No matter the "waaaay too early access", i can certainly see a lot of heart and dedication in their B-17 project. It's their first project for MSFS so we could file this, lets say, unfortunate event under 'first mistakes'. I bet we're not going see any more 'Early Access' editions with their next MSFS projects should they have that in the pipeline. ;-)

The way i see it is that they should've setup a different 'Initial Release' for their B-17 Road Map. I'm not kidding when i say that Microprose thinks MSFS is a game. Why else did they think that crew figures are so important that they've gone all 'bells and whistles' on them (at the same time getting the scale completely wrong... ;-) while they didn't even bother to animate the wheels ! ( there's a rather comical but also embarrassing effect of that in Jon Beckett's B-17 video. He taxi's to the runway over grass and the stuck wheels leave deep furrows in the ground, like he's been plowing the field...;-)


(most video reviewers carefully exclude views on the wheels while taxiing..)

If they wanted to go with an 'Early Access' edition they would've best forget about the crew (only the two pilots) and forget about the complete internal model aft of the cockpit as well. By doing so they could've concentrated on the VC and the flightdynamics much more, even until almost finished, the external model could have done as is now but with animated wheels ( !! ), 3D spinning props sideviews ( as it is now it's just too horrible to even want to look at it ) and get the LOD sorted out. While i think sound is extremely important it is of secondary importance in an early access edition. That's atleast something we can change ourselves for the time being. Textures could've done for the time being as well. Flightmodel is the most important. Atm approach and landing the MP B-17 with full throttle to keep it flying is just rediculous and takes away all the fun it would've been if only they would've put much more time into developing the flight dynamics.

I don't know if you have the MP B-17 model, Lawman, but if you do i'm almost sure you'll agree that with this particular "Early Access" edition Microprose has taken a wrong turn in their Road Map.. :unsure:
 
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Priller said:
Actually, so does Mickey$oft!
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No, absolutely not, Priller. Never sooo much bugs in a game, mate, and never takes sooo long to get rid of 'em. If MSFS was a game i would've wiped it off my SD years ago ! :cool:
 
Flight dynamics is always a separate development aspect, far and away removed (in most cases) from the graphics and animation boffins. However it is a witches art still. Over the years I have done a lot of FD's. Even had people who maybe have never flown a real plane tell me I didn't get the landing right in a plane that in real life that perhaps I had a thousand landings in? A major house for which I was a subcontractor of a subcontractor had a lead Beta Tester that didn't understand that a 400 mph fighter at altitude will not have an indicated airspeed of 400 mph. Apparently they didn't understand that either.

I hope they get things ironed out! It takes a while to test and tweak, really an ongoing business.
 
Javis said:
I don't know if you have the MP B-17 model, Lawman, but if you do i'm almost sure you'll agree that with this particular "Early Access" edition Microprose has taken a wrong turn in their Road Map.. :unsure:
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I don't have it, since I'm not a fan of "early access" myself. Also, the B-17 doesn't hold much interest to me personally, sorry. Whether MicroProse took a wrong turn depends on how much backlash they get/feel. Although the reviews generally were pretty negative, all reviewers acknowledged that it was clearly stated that it wasn't a finished product they were reviewing. But maybe most people who bought it don't mind that and are just hoping that it will be completed to their expectations. Like in all walks of life it could well be a case of a vocal minority screaming murder versus a silent majority who is satisfied for what it is right now and is hoping for the best.

P.S: if you're a B-17-afficionado and were hoping for a high-end rendition, I totally understand your disappointment and frustration.
 
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A rather scathing review from Wells Sullivan of both the flight model and things about the 3D model that should have worked properly for an 'Early Access' release : -


Cheers

Paul
 
Expecting anything from an early access build kinda goes against the concept in my opinion. Expectations are for the 1.0 release. I don't really get why people really care for reviews of this build and judge the final product already on this base.
I also watched one clip partly, as I was curious on the current state and can not test it myself currently. Currently it does not hold a lot of value for me, since my interest is mostly systems simulations and switch throwing, which is at this point not included at all. Still I bought it today as I want to support MP for taking on this project and because I see a solid base. Also because I like this approach where the development is more open for the customer who doesn't only receive the final product.
Might go well, might not. That is my risk for investing into an early access project. We'll see.
 
Lawman said:
P.S: if you're a B-17-afficionado and were hoping for a high-end rendition, I totally understand your disappointment and frustration.
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I ám a B-17 aficionado indeed and i want you to understand my dissapointment and frustation comes from the fact that i was hoping for a flyable early access edition of the MP B-17 project to enjoy in MSFS2024. Of course it is 'flyable', you can make a toilet 'flyable' in a flightsim.

High-end rendition ??.... Ha! Didn't you read my earlier post to you ? I have been a flightsimmer ever since it became possible, 'Nightflight' on a Sinclair Spectrum 48K in 1986 followed by Sublogic Flightsimulator II. That's about 40 years all together. Believe me i am fully aware of what to expect in flight simming development ( been a dev myself for about 30 years of which 10 years aircraft design for Maam-Sim ). I am dissapointed and frustrated with the release of the so called 'early access' B-17 model because it proves to be only a 'half baked early access'. A fairly new phenomenon in flightsim development. I.e. 'early access to early access'. And that's not what has been advertised by MP regarding their first MSFS project. If there are simmers that bought it and are satisfied with it, respect !

Must say i find your comment a little bit condescending, Lawman, but if that's within the law then so be it.
 
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Looking at the videos & still shots, it makes me wonder if they are trying to develop this aircraft for B17 The Might 8th at the same time as one for MSFS. It is certainly not MSFS2024 quality even by the stretch of the imagination, but in its current state it would be a huge step forward for TM8th.


Forest
 

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Wells builds nearly all of our flight models. I find it a "black art" which I would prefer to leave to people like him. I know I can give him a cardboard box and leave him to worry about the density and friction co-efficient of the cardboard while I get my crayons out. I cannot and will not comment on this model or any aspects but I can comment on "early access" . Personally I do not see the point. Why expose your product and yourself to levels of criticism and negative comment when, in my opinion, the time would be better spent finishing the product to an acceptable standard and then releasing. To me it looks like one step forward and two back.
 
Don't have 2024, but I do have Redux ... and I feel your pain. I was giddy as hell at the thought of MP being reborn ... sadly it's not the same reincarnation of the previous. And to me, as much as I wanted to see a perfect reproduction of B-17TME .. it's looking more and more like a money grab. Especially when one goes to the MP Discord site and watches all the games from the 70s 80s and 90s being reincarnated by MP and actually going nowhere.
I think they have too much on their plate to actually have any kind of a team do anything to all those irons in the fire. It's turned into a real CF.
 
Javis said:
Must say i find your comment a little bit condescending, Lawman, but if that's within the law then so be it.
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That is most certainly not my intention, Javis. I know that you were involved in FS-development (I had most of the MAAM-stuff back in FS9). What I'm trying to convey to you is that sometimes you have to try to see the viewpoint of the other party involved (in this case MicroProse). They may have other passions, needs and interests which are just as legitimate as yours. In Western society, we seem to have forgotten that virtue (and that of patience). Like Bazzar, as a (potential) customer I don't see the point of "early access". But it clearly works for the companies who employ it (see e.g. the reasons Mr. Mugel gives for buying it), otherwise they would have stopped doing it. And maybe MicroProse themselves would have preferred not to, but felt compelled to do so for reasons unknown to us. Your guess is as good as mine.

In the end, commercial developers offer us a product. It is up to us if we are willing to fork over the asking price for what is offered. Constructive criticism may help a developer offer (a) better product(s) in the future. Criticism out of frustration and/or disappointment because it doesn't conform to your personal expectations of what you think it should be (especially over a product still in development), is a futile exercise IMHO. Just say "I wish you all the best, but this product (in its current state) is not for me and I will not take you up on your offering" and walk away. We make such choices/decisions all the time (e.g. doing groceries), so why should it be any different when it comes to flightsim add-ons?
Now I may not sway you and that's okay. I still respect you/your opinion and am grateful for the pleasure I got from the add-ons you were involved in. We both just have to acccept that we look differently at the actions of MicroProse.
 
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There are a few aircraft that i have special feelings for, the B-17 is one of 'em. If this 'early access' fuss would've concerned any other aircraft model than one of my 'specials' ( next to the B-17, Connie, DC-3, Tiger Moth and Spit) i probabely couldn't have cared less. I mean, it has only to do with the B-17 model for which i have been looking out for during the entire existance of MFSF2020 and of course ever since 2024 showed up. So here comes MP with the announcement of their B-17 project, possibly already more than a year ago. That's more than a year building up the tension that becomes almost unbearable when the date is set for the release of an "Early Access" edition (Who cares ! Just bring it on !! ). Of course i did not expect a 'high end rendition' but i also did not expect to see this Early Access edition to be just about a half-baked model which is clearly not even in alpha stage. I am not exactly a fan of Early Access models neither but i did buy a few anyway (or got them for free for evaluation) and i remember having been surprised not only once about the quality. Beta stage with all kinds of finesses still in the works. It might just be that this was what i had in mind for the B-17 Early Access as well (or in any case hoped it would be... ;-)

And don't forget, Lawman, flightsimming is a Hobby, something that you put your heart and soul into and is what makes life worthwhile for a good part, something that becomes more valuable the older you get. Doing shopping....hmmm.... i think i can do without. ;)
 
Javis said:
There are a few aircraft that i have special feelings for, the B-17 is one of 'em. If this 'early access' fuss would've concerned any other aircraft model than one of my 'specials' ( next to the B-17, Connie, DC-3, Tiger Moth and Spit) i probabely couldn't have cared less. I mean, it has only to do with the B-17 model for which i have been looking out for during the entire existance of MFSF2020 and of course ever since 2024 showed up. So here comes MP with the announcement of their B-17 project, possibly already more than a year ago. That's more than a year building up the tension that becomes almost unbearable when the date is set for the release of an "Early Access" edition (Who cares ! Just bring it on !! ). Of course i did not expect a 'high end rendition' but i also did not expect to see this Early Access edition to be just about a half-baked model which is clearly not even in alpha stage. I am not exactly a fan of Early Access models neither but i did buy a few anyway (or got them for free for evaluation) and i remember having been surprised not only once about the quality. Beta stage with all kinds of finesses still in the works. It might just be that this was what i had in mind for the B-17 Early Access as well (or in any case hoped it would be... ;-)

And don't forget, Lawman, flightsimming is a Hobby, something that you put your heart and soul into and is what makes life worthwhile for a good part, something that becomes more valuable the older you get. Doing shopping....hmmm.... i think i can do without. ;)
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I understand. I think we have both said all that there is to be said, so let's leave it at that, okay:icon29:?

Edit: I do hope you'll get a B-17 that meets your expectations.
 
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