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Negative Comments and repercussions

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I started releasing screenshots of the SkyUnlimited FS9 Texan/Harvard on this forum about 8 months before the models were published. During that time I received several comments from the likes of T6Flyer and Tein MacDonald, where they pointed out mistakes that had been made in the model building process. But they did it in such a way that I was willing to listen to them, and as a result the models released were much better and more accurate.

I worked on a WW1 flight simulator game (KOE) and a WW1 submarine game with a man who was the lead programmer on Falcon 3. When I first arrived on the team I was told by him that I was not to get involved in anyway on any of the WW1 online forums because to do so would be, "unfruitful." Looking back at the experience with 20/20 hindsight I would say he was way off the mark with that attitude and the team missed out on a wealth of knowledge and experience that is only available through online communities.

When we finally did publish the Texan/Harvard package, I prepared myself for the onslaught of rude, or foolish posts that everyone else seemed to get when a plane is first released. It never came. The sales didn't come either. Seems the FS community had gotten it's fill of the T-6 from the AlphaSim release and except for a handful folks we were largely overlooked.

So my words to fellow developers are - stay involved with the SOH community as there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained that can't be had any other way.

My words to those who find fault and are eager to express it. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. One way will have others listening and things will get fixed. The other way will get you ignored, and even if you have a valid point, you won't be heard.
 
X_eidos2 said:
I started releasing screenshots of the SkyUnlimited FS9 Texan/Harvard on this forum about 8 months before the models were published. During that time I received several comments from the likes of T6Flyer and Tein MacDonald, where they pointed out mistakes that had been made in the model building process. But they did it in such a way that I was willing to listen to them, and as a result the models released were much better and more accurate.

I worked on a WW1 flight simulator game (KOE) and a WW1 submarine game with a man who was the lead programmer on Falcon 3. When I first arrived on the team I was told by him that I was not to get involved in anyway on any of the WW1 online forums because to do so would be, "unfruitful." Looking back at the experience with 20/20 hindsight I would say he was way off the mark with that attitude and the team missed out on a wealth of knowledge and experience that is only available through online communities.

When we finally did publish the Texan/Harvard package, I prepared myself for the onslaught of rude, or foolish posts that everyone else seemed to get when a plane is first released. It never came. The sales didn't come either. Seems the FS community had gotten it's fill of the T-6 from the AlphaSim release and except for a handful folks we were largely overlooked.

So my words to fellow developers are - stay involved with the SOH community as there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained that can't be had any other way.

My words to those who find fault and are eager to express it. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. One way will have others listening and things will get fixed. The other way will get you ignored, and even if you have a valid point, you won't be heard.
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If it makes any diffrence, I have both AS and SU AT-6 and the AS version hasn't been installed on my system in a long time; about two or three days after the SU version came out I removed the AS AT-6.
 
Great post Bill and I agree completely. Anyone that spends enough time here has a good idea what members need to work on their "constructive" criticism techniques and what not.

We are blessed that we have some of the best commercial developers that post here and quite a few freeware ones at that. I have seen many times a freeware developer open up about their projects here due to the friendly atmosphere and the encouragement we provide, would hate to lose that because a handful of members that don't think before they speak/type.

Personally, I feel people have a right to express themselves and I know only to well how easily the written word can be misinterpreted, especially when we have a global community, but let's try and be more civil and understanding before we comment.
 
OBIO said:
I can't model a plane for the life of me, I can't build a set of flight dynamics that work, I can't program gauges............OBIO
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Top post OBIO!
My sentiments exactly...this is a pass-time/hobby after all.

(talking of which,Bill (Lionheart) I'm temporarily back over 'your side' of the pond, give me a yell if you fancy hooking up for some on-line 'flying')

ttfn

Pete
 
Sorry for the lengthy reply... I got on my soapbox for a bit! :)

Okay, being I'm here and many other notable names have posted on this topic, I thought I'd add my two cents worth...
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
When I first started off in this industry, and took the jump from freeware to commercial add-ons, I was given the best bit of advice from someone who'd been in the industry previously... "Grow a thick skin, and grow it FAST!"
<o:p></o:p>
It's true, not just the flight sim industry but the world over, the internet and the forums offer a form of anonymity which provides the user (in most cases) a form of shield to hide behind whilst posting. I myself am far more brazen over the net than I am face to face. A part of that is the fact that I am typing on a PC, in the comfort of my own home, and not sitting directly opposite the person or persons I'm conversing with.
<o:p></o:p>
Funnily enough, this is also true of others. Really, would people say things they say on forums if they sat within punching distance of the person they're being rude to? I know I wouldn't.lol. I'm not *completely* stupid! (Just mildly so!)
<o:p></o:p>
That all being said, I DO agree with Bill. I think it would be great if some people were to really think before typing... take five minutes time out to calm down and your comments will be FAR more constructive as opposed to destructive. I'm not saying no bad comments should be posted, and I get the impression from Bill that he's not asking that either.<o:p></o:p>

As a developer, I cannot stand 'yes men'. I cannot stand it in a beta tester, who is essentially a customer on the inside. :) I have a rule in the testing team... "If it's crap, tell me its crap, and then tell me how to fix it!" <o:p></o:p>

It's the 'tell me how to fix it' part which is most important, and which most people seem to forget. <o:p></o:p>

Sure, the argument comes in that customers shouldn't have to beta test products... the world has been telling that to Microsoft for years, and look where THAT's gotten us!<o:p></o:p>

We're all human, including the testers. Many payware groups consist of one or two full time individuals and a small to medium size team of part time guys who help out around work, school, university etc... All doing research on one or more different aircraft to make a realistic rendition of their aircraft of choice. Whilst we ALL do our best to get an aircraft as accurate as possible it is inevitable that when it hits the masses, others are going to find fault where the limited in team resources failed. <o:p></o:p>

This is not to belittle the efforts of testers, they do a FANTASTIC job. I know mine certainly do with what they're given. However, it's a fact that the more people you throw at a product, the more feedback you're going to get.<o:p></o:p>

This brings me back to my original point. I've always accepted criticism of our products, even though most times it's difficult and sometimes painful to swallow. What I don't approve of, and find downright useless, is criticism which is not constructive whatsoever. <o:p></o:p>

I received an e-mail the other day basically saying, 'your plane is sh#t, fix it NOW.' <o:p></o:p>

Now this is an example in its purest form of destructive criticism. He has started off by throwing foul language at me (BTW, that's a guaranteed deleted item there. If you can't be courteous to write politely, don't expect an answer. If you called up a customer service rep and spoke like that, you'd guarantee being hung up on!) <o:p></o:p>

Secondly, he's not given ANY indication of the problem he's experiencing OR a solution he'd like to see. So obviously HOW is the developer expected to successfully address his problem.<o:p></o:p>
A while back, I would have taken that personally and considered throwing in the towel..Now I laugh at it and press my delete button.<o:p></o:p>

However on the flip-side, we have an e-mail stating the following;<o:p></o:p>

'I appreciate your efforts on your F-14 Tomcat, however I've noticed that the TARPS pod is shaped incorrectly based on images I've seen. Below I've included a number of links to images on the net I've used for reference. Would this be able to be addressed in a hotfix or service pack down the road?'<o:p></o:p>

THAT is a perfect example of a constructive e-mail. The person in question has complimented the designer on the efforts made, and politely indicated something he has noticed as being incorrect, and provided documented evidence from which to substantiate his claims and aid the developer in addressing the issue.<o:p></o:p>

Now I'm sure much of what I've written will fall on deaf ears... I am wise enough to realise that whilst this thread has significant credit, leopards in the most part don't change their spots. The poor communicators will continue to be so, despite their best efforts, and the poor listeners will also remain so. I am hoping that some may change their outlook, or better yet, decide to walk a few miles in the shoes of the developers they spend most of their free time bashing.<o:p></o:p>

I started off in freeware because I wanted to see a plane made that no-one else would do. I bought FSDS and built a half assed rendition of a Nimrod which never saw the light of day, but it DID do two important things... <o:p></o:p>

1. It reminded me how much hard bloody work this is to develop a plane (and I hadn't even touched on sounds, textures or flight dynamics)<o:p></o:p>

2. It gave me a superb feeling of accomplishment to see something *I* made flying in flightsim...sure it was aliased to a Learjet and had two engines instead of four, but the gear worked and when it was flying you couldn't tell that the plane sunk 10 feet into the runway on landing!<o:p></o:p>

After that, I made a promise, which I continue to live to today.. EVERY new plane, without exception is better than the last in some small way. EVERY plane I design is a new learning experience, in the way they're designed, the features they implement, the way the texturing, sounds or modelling is done. Some small way, I find a way to push myself and the team with each new product.<o:p></o:p>

And finally, as I often say to those getting into this industry. Don't do it to make money, do it out of passion for the hobby & the love of the subject matter. Even the big design teams will tell you, there are many other jobs out there that pay more dollars per hour than flightsim, McDonalds counter staff for example!<o:p></o:p>

If you develop purely for the financial reward, it'll be a lonely and disheartening time as you quickly figure out that the money in the bank isn't matching the hours at the desk or the time away from the family.<o:p></o:p>

If however, you have a passion for the subject matter and a love for the hobby, criticism, however harsh won't detract you from your OWN feeling of accomplishment on a job well done or the knowledge that YOU have created a plane from the ground up, polygon by polygon, pixel by pixel, through blood, sweat, tears, sleepless nights, FAR too much coffee, and in some cases laced with nodoze!
<o:p></o:p>
I for one will continue to develop aircraft for flightsim providing people keep buying them in order to pay my bills, and keep a roof over my head and keep Karen from telling me to get a 'real' job. :) Criticism or otherwise!
 
seriously; was this caused by my comments about the f-16d? I was just wondering a few things and I don't think I ever badmouthed it. In fact, I complimented it.
 
Tigisfat, I said my piece on that thread and have every intention to leave it be... As for my comments on this thread, they're general in nature and are not aimed at anything in particular.. :)
 
Never wrestle with a pig...you'll both get dirty and the pig will probably enjoy it.
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Only if you are a hot curvy brunette!:ernae:
As far as nasty comments and e-mails go, I get some from time to time. I just use my best weapon..
DELETE KEY
and get on with life.
 
TACT , learn it if you don't know what it means. :ernae:
 
As staff here
this is what i will tolerate
politeness, constructive criticism, respect.
what i will not tolerate
personal digs, blatant rudeness or ignorance.
Fair debate is what we strive for
i believe all staff sit on the fence watching
yup we have opinions but mostly keep them to ourselves.
I see some excellent comments here
but its easy to type words without thinking
and agendas come into play a lot,
personally i read a lot of threads
and get used to peoples posts
as a lover of human behavior
i get used to certain people responding in certain ways
there are a few with negative comments
and i do not mean they say negative things about a product sometimes they are destructive negative comments there is a difference
so common courtesy and a good laugh
is always welcome
H
 
Over the months I have seen a rise of what I term sereial critics. There are not many of them but they can turn a developer off very quickly.

At the risk of sounding rude to anyone may I suggest that these critics put their hands up as beta testers.

I have been on beta teams for several projects. The first was the Aeroplane Heaven/Just Flight P-38 and another AH project that has been on hold while another project is under way.

I was also on the team for the Uiver DC-2 project for FS9 and now am also on the team for the native FSX version. May I also add that while doing this I am having a ball!

The benefit of being a beta tester is that you can use your knowledge to improve the model before it is released. At the moment we are up to Beta 5a with the FSX model and there is still a long way to go. We have our own forum where we can post screenshots of any anomolies and they can be corrected. This works very well and we will finish up with a great aircraft.

As others have said in this thread, a little bit of courtesy goes a looooong way and helps keep developers in the hobby.

That is my say on tis.

Cheers
Pat
 
If you don't get a few rude emails..and a spattering of ignorance-based forum complaints.. it probably means that very few people are downloading your creation..

:monkies:

Thick skin helps.. but worrying about even a few dozen trouble-causers after 50,000 downloads (or more), is like worrying about the weather.

I'll gladly help as many of the sincere and polite people that time will allow.. I literally ignore the foot-stompers.

:jump:
 
I have not been around these pages much recently.
Mainly due to some tragedies in life but mostly because of a need to keep a business head clear of the water.

However, I have kept a watch on the threads, out of curiosity and also find that the "vibe" if there is one, has definitely changed in the community.

Now I believe there are some fundamental reasons for this.

1) Global recessionary trend has people looking very closely at how and where they spend their money. Naturally, therefore, critical evaluation becomes more important to us all before we buy.

2) It is my personal opinion that Microsoft released FSX before it was really ready. A lot of patching and tweaking (continuing) has been necessary to make it work properly on most of today's current crop of computers. It simply outgunned anything less. That does not make it bad but it is never a great marketing direction to ignore the current market entirely or ignore the bulk of considered, intelligent comment coming from third party developers, who, after all are gong to continue to carry the flag. Either way, it left developers with a lot of headaches, some that have never gone away. Consequently, add-on production has slowed to a comparative dribble and the market is frustrated, angry and hungry. Not a pretty sight.

Microsoft,also, in my opinion, has paid the price or more accurately, Aces studio personell has, leaving a vacuum for developers and consumers alike.

I happen to believe they will return but not anytime soon.

3) The level of expectancy has risen beyond the sensible. This is still a game and true simulation with the accuracy and fidelity demanded by some is simply not achievable at the price people want to pay and using the tools available. If it were, the majority of professional simulation companies would be out of business by now simulators would not cost the millions that they do. Yes, there are some remarkable products available right now and for quite reasonable prices but in truth, I believe that this pricing is artifiicially low, compared to costs of product in other hobbies such as modeling for example.Most developers would be hard put to be showing any sort of profit right now. That's why many no longer frequent these corridors. What's the point if all they are going to hear is gloom and despond?

So, in the interests of promoting a calmer more considered atmosphere, I humbly suggest the following:



Research as much as possible, preferably with the maker of the piece you intend buying, to establish its features and content.

Acqaint yourself with those that own the product. Nothing competes with accuracy of comment from one who owns an example.These forums become an excellent source for information and opinion from those that do own the type of product which holds your interest, which helps greatly in the buying decision.


Try not to evaluate a purchase on the basis of heresay or the opinon of one who hasn't tried the product. They cannot possibly be cogniscent of the work that the model represents, its full features or its build quality. Neither will a "screenshot" opinion suffice as a) they will not have taken the shot and b) can only describe what they see, based on the resolution at which they view the shot.

Smile more. Nothing that costs so little is worth the angst some of you get into around here.

If there is little pleasure to be had any more from presenting a new product, having some productive conversation and discussing things in an adult, measured way, people will innevitably drift away and our hobby will be poorer for it.

Finally, for you, gajit, I don't happen to agree with much you say but I will fight to the death, to defend your right to say it.

Happy flying everyone. Please.:engel016:
 
I welcome objective views that truly are objective. I welcome constructive criticism. After all, this is an ongoing learning process for me, but if your going to make an opinion about an aircraft someone does, it could be phrased a bit differently than "they havent done anything good in the last year". Please, provide us, the developers with some data to backup your claims. Photos, Web pages data sets, anything to work with. After all, you are our customers, and you are the most important people in the world to us. Your happiness is what makes us able to keep going, cuz i'll tell ya, 3000 hours bent over a ruler and a calculator aint no way to have fun. Work with us please. Dont just spout out some emotionally charged tyrade like some child would do. We aint after your bucks. We're after your smiles, Some of us just feel that when it's the only way we canmake some kind of bill paying money because all our time is taken up doing it, to the point of not working a ""real"" job, that we should get some kind of compensation for it. So please. Work with us..
Pam
 
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