Negative Comments and repercussions

[Marvin Carter]

There is a fine line between criticism and cutting and it the way some do it that comes off harsh. It is "NOT" nessisery to be harsh unless you are trying to hurt.I have noticed this latly and "WHY"
Marvin Carter

 

[hey_moe]

Nick, I wuv your avatar. As far as how a plane works on someones computer we have seen we all see different things. I see no problem bringing this up to a builder. It is how things get fixed.When we purchase a product and the download doesn't work, I see no problem letting other members know they are having a problem. This too is how things get fixed. Here we go again with what works on one puter might not on another. As far as a member saying a plane sucks, I haven't seen this yet.Now I have seen where certain sites screw over members after they got there money and yea...I don't support that. Bill if you are referring to that thread I closed, I have my own reasons and I am not going into any details in that area. We have over a thousand hits a day here, and plenty come in here to read up and visit. Yeah sometimes a thread gets out of hand, I think Huub along with the rest can attest to that but that is just us being us. We have a wide variation of members in here from all parts of the world. Our site is more family orientated than most other sites.You are right we ya say we are lucky to have builders,modlers..ect...ect...but they do not make this site by themselves. The members make the site and each and everyone has the right to express themselves in here on really just about anything. If everybody agreed on everything and were lov-ee dove-ee....what fun would we have in here.Sometimes members come in here to just blow steam and then later on feel better. I think if ya go back and review some of the threads where some in here fuss a bit about a product 99% of the time it gets worked out. Take Ickie for instance, I have been working on that boys attitude for as long as I can remember...and he still got a bad attitude:d

 

[Boomer]

Bill I fundamentally agree with you. However IMO payware developers need to have very thick skin. When you take someones money for something you have to be prepared for fallout for any defect, real or imagined.

I have seen many posts that illustrate what you are talking about & they usually irritate me as well but I generally just ignore them.

My own personal motto is "Never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level & then beat you with experience".

 

[CodyValkyrie]

Bill I fundamentally agree with you. However IMO payware developers need to have very thick skin. When you take someones money for something you have to be prepared for fallout for any defect, real or imagined.

I have seen many posts that illustrate what you are talking about & they usually irritate me as well but I generally just ignore them.

My own personal motto is "Never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level & then beat you with experience".

Boomer, I couldn't actually agree more, especially about addon developers having very tough skin. I have tried to explain this to many of my friends in this industry, and it often falls on deaf ears... until the negative commentary comes in then all hell breaks loose.

 

[krazycolin]

I agree. I've seriously considered not posting here anymore due to this.

Gajit, you and others like you might feel that you are being asked to stop saying nasty things. Quite true. You are. If you have something to say about someone else's work, that's fine. Say it BUT be polite. No need to be nasty. Be NICE about it. Say that it's wrong or off or whatever but do it in such a way as to be inoffensive. If I were to come to your work and dis what you do in front of your peers, you wouldn't like it very much but it would be much worse if I was nasty about it...

Be right too. That's important. If you find that the nose of an AC is of the wrong type and can prove it, do so. Merely saying that it is isn't enough. Using information that is questionable doesn't work either. Visual proof is what I'm on about. Being told that the gear is of the wrong type on the Corsair but not getting any visual proof of that really ticked me off. Really.

As well, making what could be called a judgement call isn't enough. Your judgement alone and note, this is not necessarily directed at you, isn't enough to make something right. Just because you might feel that the FDE of the B-16A isn't good enough doesn't mean that it isn't. It just means that you don't like it. Saying "I don't like it and I would rather have saved my money" rather than "it sucks and you shouldn't buy it" is what is being said here. In fact, if you don't like it that much, you should contact the owner of the company you bought it from and I am sure that most of us will gladly refund your money. As long as you promise to never fly it again of course. And then, you might be obliged to say that, hey, it was really nice of them... they gave me my money back.

For me, when someone says something that is outright rude and denigrating, well, it makes me mad. And that makes me want to pull out. Lately, I, and the company I run, Milviz, has been on the forefront of these "attacks". I certainly don't appreciate it. I'm not going to stop making FSX models but I may not post here anymore.

Finally, if you don't actually own the aircraft in question, then you shouldn't be making comments unless asked as in comments and crits welcome. That's only my take.

I'm out.

kc.

 

[stiz]

I'm all for constructive critisim, as moe said it would be boring if all you read was "we love it" "its perfect" etc ... however theres a good way of saying you dont like it and a bad way

"I dont like it, to me the textureing for the chair and main panel put me off completly, and to me the arm rest looks like stiz has sat on it and bent it wwaaayyy outa shape "

is a lot better than,

"this is crap, i hate it, the vc is the worst i've ever seen, i want my money back now" etc.

 

[Lionheart]

I should say that I did not post this thread as a developer. I know what its like to get rough emails as well as rough comments in forums, and yes, in the business you need thick skin. But when I see others being treated rough, their hard work trashed, and 'knowing' how much they worked on it, it really gets to me. So you could say I posted this as a fellow FS enthusiast.

I know what to expect. I have some thick skin. But I hate to see others treated so badly.


How about a little nicer approach. Thats all. Why humiliate and put down people and their work. Thats all I am saying.

Its easy enough to say 'I think that armrest is just a bit off' and supply some photos. You could even send them directly to the development team to be 'really' professional about it. Who knows, you might become friends with them and get into the team.

Using insults will get you just what you eventually didnt want, unless you really were trying to destroy a team.

Kindness goes a long ways..... It also makes you look better.


And yes, never wrestle with a pig. If you are a developer and you get a pretty negative email, its best to just delete it. Why argue with them. Forget what you read and carry on.


I almost saw Icarus quit over some posts in his thread. I really hated that. That person is one hard working soul and his textures and planes are incredible.



Bill

 

[jojohnson9]

Hey guys,


... Be a gentleman about your opinions. ...


Bill

This is what I get from Bill's post and I agree completely. Constructive criticism as well as positive feedback are both necessary. But the criticism does not need to be harsh: nor should the praise be smarmy.

 

[Kavehpd]

... The point is it makes it kinda scary posting your opinions here as there is no telling which way the crowd is swayed in that particular day.

That is exactly why I'd have to disagree with the idea of forcing everyone to be "nice."

Negative is one thing. Rude is another. Rude commenters need to be taken care of, of course. But negative feedback should be just as important as the positive comments. And by positive, I do not mean the generally useless "awesome, fantastic, the best, excellent" kind of nonsense. Sadly, MANY developer forums are now just like that: a useless fan club with zero tolleration for negative feedback.

This is a community website. Developers should deal with the fact that unlike their own forum members, SOH members might, for whatever reason, dislike their products. As long as this is expressed rationally and in a normal and respectful manner, there should be no rules and regulations against negative comments.

Also, and most importantly "knowing nothing about how to make a sound file, aircraft mesh, paint a VC in high resolution, etc." should not stop anybody from commenting. I've been a flight simmer since 1988 and I know quite a lot. But never have claimed to be Superman or Einstein. Everybody, from the person who's bought his copy just today to the person who's been into this since the get go should feel free to comment.

I might not comment a lot over here, but I read the forums almost every day. I really hate to see SOH is turned into, ehhem, that developer forum that is now "unofficial"!!!

 

[Kavehpd]

Almost forgot, if you ban negative comments about Abacus, I'll put a jihad on your arse!

 

[heywooood]

I hear you Bill - and I know what you're onto.

But what we have here is both an educational and a cultural problem.

Lately, if you pay attention, all comedy is is character assassination and rudeness.

And with the advent of 'political correctness' in our schools - it seems they have addressed the problem of 'uncomfortable' discussions and dialogues - with NO meaningful discussion or dialogue in the classrooms...so our kids (and I'm probably referring to 3 decades worth now) have NO idea how to converse or argue with any respect or regard for one another.
Something you only learn to do properly - with practice.

Now I've ruffled a feather or two since I came into this room and I know it - came off a bit rougher than I intended WRT a certain model - and I was wrong...sometimes I come in here after work when I should wind down first. No excuses though.

I think you are right to point this out at this point in time Bill - I have seen the uptick of impoliteness as well.

 

[djscoo]

And yes, never wrestle with a pig.

Bill

This argument goes both ways... I can remember two specific instances (it's probably happened more) where a member here made a comment and was assaulted by a virtual lynch mob for ever making their opinion known. In short it is of my opinion that everyone here should be free to speak their mind as long as it remains within the site's guidelines. A personal attack is grounds for banning, but I certainly hope saying someones product "sucks" isn't. Not everyone is blessed with maturity or eloquence in speaking (or typing in this instance). It is my feeling that it shouldn't be against the rules to express displeasure with a developer as an entity rather than a person.

 

[djscoo]

...so our kids (and I'm probably referring to 3 decades worth now) have NO idea how to converse or argue with any respect or regard for one another....

 

[Lotus]

Well this probably isn't the best thread to introduce myself on, but I'm going to anyway because it's a very interesting topic to me, and one that I've had to think about a lot lately. Hello all, long time lurker, first time poster and all that. By the way, excellent forum you have here, I like it.

On the topic of criticism I'd just like to add my thoughts if I may be so bold as a newcomer.

I think criticism is generally good, and I think that most developers want to improve and progress with each new project, but I agree with others that the way in which criticism comes across is worth considering, and this is difficult at the best of times on any forum. It's always easier in a face to face encounter when people can read each others' body language etc, and when there is also direct and real accountability for one's words and actions.

The thing with developing though, especially for FS as I have discovered over the past year, and this is just me speaking for myself (though I think other developers might agree), is that the process is driven primarily by love. For developers who have the skills to make a great aircraft or scenery, trust me when I say that there are *far* easier ways to make money with those skills. The return for the time and effort invested is historically very low, and the only things that can make up the difference in motivation required are love and passion for flight simulation and of creating content for it... and plenty of both.

In the past when I worked for major console game developers I never really had much attachment to my creations and criticism didn't bother me for the most part. I generally enjoyed my work but at the end of the day I was pretty much just 'collecting a paycheque'. Developing my first aircraft for FSX though... solo... well, that is an entirely different beast, and my passion is the only fuel I've had to get me through a year that has contained far too many sleepless nights of pushing pixels and writing xml.

Unfortunately there is nothing easy about any facet of developing content for FS, whether aircraft or scenery, everything is just monumentally difficult. It takes some real dedication to see a project through, and I personally commend every developer for sticking with our hobby at this point, whether I like their individual products or not, considering that the plug has been pulled on FS11.

So I guess my point is that when criticizing a developer for what they have created, maybe try to keep in mind that you're potentially poking at something which they have truly given their heart and soul to, at the expense of many other things in life, and how you put that criticism can indeed make all the difference to their morale. I'm not suggesting to pussyfoot or give praise where you don't think it's due, and I think criticism is expected, sometimes even desired, and is almost always a good reality check, but I don't think it's ever very easy to take after such effort. In the past I have given out my fair share of criticism, but stepping into the shoes of those I was giving it to has certainly changed my perspective on it. Anyway, all that said, I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech too, so disregard everything I said above and bash away! Hehe.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Cheers all.

-Mike

 

[Milton Shupe]

Mike,

Welcome and thank you for stepping up with participation.

There are many salient points in this thread and its great to see the maturity with which it has evolved. Hats off to all of you.

 

[GT182]

If you have dislikes about a product whether it be feeware of payware... use your head and be constructive, not destructive and turn them away. Be helpful. I believe that is what Bill is saying.

Remember this... "You can't fix stupid."

 

[Marvin Carter]

What ever happened to common cert icy
Marvin Carter

 

[OBIO]

I can't model a plane for the life of me, I can't build a set of flight dynamics that work, I can't program gauges. I can do skins, tweak sound packs based on other peoples' work (with permission of course) and I can regauge a plane to my liking.

With my abilities clearly defined, I will say this: If I like a model, I keep it in my collection and if I get a chance to recommend it to others or to give some praise to the maker(s) I do. If I don't like a model, I don't keep in my collection. If I like a model, but not the paints, I make my own. If I think that the gauges that come with the plane are too modern, I swap them out for some vintage gauges. I tweak the planes in my collection to better suit my taste and flying style (or crashing style to be more accurate). There is not a single plane in my collection that I have not personalized in some manner...which between CFS2 and FS2004 is close to 2200 planes.

I have some planes in my collection that have "issues" that I have accepted and have learned to live with...for example, I have a B-58 Hustler that is modeled decently, has a very usable VC...but the upper and lower wing surfaces share a common texture sheet. This prevents me from painting this plane in anything other than bare metal schemes. I have not, and will not, fire an e-mail to the maker of this plane telling him he screwed up by doing the texture mapping this way. That would be wrong...he gave freely of his time and talent in sharing this plane with the community, and I am grateful for that. And since there is only one painted scheme that I would want to paint this particular plane up in, but over 2 dozen bare metal schemes waiting to be done up for the plane, I think I will have enough paints to enjoy that I will not miss that one painted scheme.

Payware...I could count the number of payware items on my two hands and have a few fingers remaining I do believe. I don't have the funds or the inclination to purchase every payware item that comes along. Those payware items that I do have, I am very happy with. I did my research, looked at what other people were saying about the item, and giving the maker(s) time to fix any bugs that were discovered post-release. With this strategy, I had no disappointments with the items I purchased.

If, on the other hand, I did rush out to purchase the payware XB-143C the day it hit the market and found that the gear animation was a bit wonky, I would send an e-mail to the maker letting them know that the gear animation was a bit wonky....but I would do it in a manner that was HELPFUL and PRODUCTIVE and not BELITTLING and SCORNFUL. By pointing out the fact that gear animation is wonky, I am helping the maker of the XB-143C correct the problem for me and for all others who purchase the package.

And one thing that I try to keep in mind when dealing with my sim planes...and this is something my wife told me one day when I was really excited about how well a skin came out....It is a cartoon airplane. They are all cartoon airplanes. They are nothing more than 3D animated drawings of airplanes. They are not real. They are not going to be 100% accurate in every detail and in performance. If you can not accept the fact that the $50 payware XB-143C is just a very expensive 3D animated cartoon airplane, then you really need to lighten up and get a grip on yourself. Compaining about a mishaped turn signal lever in a cartoon plane is like the people who complained that the ants in A Bugs Life should have 6 "arms" instead of just 4...but I found it odd that people would complain that it was not accurate for an ant to only have 4 appendages, but not make a single peep about the fact that the ants were speaking ENGLISH...ever had a conversation with an ant? No, and you won't...because they don't speak English.

OBIO

 

[MudMarine]

How about another phrase......use common sense! In other words, treat people the way you want to be treated. I've also noticed the level on both sides going down around here lately. To the point where I almost said, more than once, enough is enough and I'm done.

 

[icycle]

Interesting Topic this is.

Long time lurker, rarely a poster, but this one is too interesting to pass up.

A very smart person once said to me: "Its not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it that counts". I (try) to live with that in mind. (not always 100% successful with that!)

You know, we really can agree to disagree, if we so choose to. Just as long as we RESPECT the others opinions, just as we would want to be respected for ours. I have seen both sides on these forums. From a "free-for-all" where respect is dropped, and it all becomes persecution, vindictiveness, and venom, on one hand, to where all "contrary" or "constructive" points of view are jumped upon, and everyone is scared to post, on the other. I really think that there is room for "middle ground" here.

Don't look now gentlemen (and ladies), but watch out, a CIVILIZED discourse has broken out on this thread!!!

Bill

Time for a