UKMIL CH-47 is out...but....

[michael davies]

Michael,
Looking at Rogers screenie, it looks like it has some glare/white spots that show up (unfortunately) in photo-real repaints...

Mr P,

Maybe ?, but I'll wager a beer or two that modified material specular values will either reduce them or even remove them, looking at those shots and others I've seen, the highlights look like specular issues.

I don't have the model so cannot speak authoritatively on what type of texture is used, but material specularity is something I've been doing for six years, right back to CFS2 and a Hex editor LOL.

We'll see what happens if they change the materials, IMHO specular shine on military airframes should be subtle and discrete, it is often overdone, not just in FSx but in past sims too, either by choice or I suspect lack of detailed knowledge on what to alter to get the desired effect, I much prefer a sheen type effect.

I had been led to believe that material specularity was not possible in FSx and that specular maps had to be used, I bemoaned that loss as I feel material specularity has an important place in model visuals, granted specular maps are more detailed and pixel accurate, but for large areas then you cannot beat a material shine, it was only when messing with the Jetstream41 materials that I noticed these values, I'm sure it must be common knowledge by those who pushed the frontiers long before me, so apologise if it repeats past endeavours.

Best

Michael

 

[UKMIL]

ok i have added a dark spec map, and now it has no shine, BUT the side away from the light is very dark, so do i need to make a lighter spec?

 

[michael davies]

ok i have added a dark spec map, and now it has no shine, BUT the side away from the light is very dark, so do i need to make a lighter spec?

Ahh adding specular maps might be an issue, I wasn't referring to specular maps at all, they're a different kettle of fish, as a test I suggest removing any and all specular maps from the texture folder, then opening the model in Gmax and using the text above only alter the two values I mentioned, recompile and see what happens.

Back to your specular map, notice it is not a smooth transition between left and right sides, that is because its a texture and its showing the join between the two, a material shine shouldn't show that, either way that line along the spine should be a smooth blend, not a hard line between light and shadow. Just an off chance thought, is your fuselage in two hlaves ?, if so then you will need to weld the vertices along the two halves to get a smooth flow of specular effects

I've not played too much with specular textures just yet, but the color of the texture is the amount of shine and the color of the alpha layer is the spread I believe.

As I said specular maps are much more detailed and thus much more complex to get right, materials are much simpler and thus easier to get a direct and quick result, start with them and then work up to maps later.

A screen grab of your material editor similar to the one I posted earlier would explain more than an in game screen shot I think.

Best

Michael

 

[UKMIL]

ok i assume you are meaning this spec colour circled? i was under the impression these had no effect in FSX, but i am prob wrong. by default it is light grey, so i will try and remove the spec map, and change this instead

 

[N2056]

In Gmax you use the Material Editor. For specular maps...the color is the reflected light color, and the alpha controls the size of the 'hotspot', darker alpha = tighter spot.
Also...changing shader values via the editor adds to the draw calls. My understanding is that you are better off adjusting values via texture.
Hope that helps...I've been messing with spec maps a lot lately :isadizzy:

There is a lot of info on this over at freeflightdesign :d

 

[UKMIL]

aaarggh, now i am confused, on one hand, i am told to use material editor, on the other, use a texture:isadizzy:

 

[stiz]

i'll add to the confusion then! :costumes:

i took a ganders at the texture folders and i can see any spec maps at all, however when i opened up the normanl map textures (or bump) they dont look right, i'll have a play

 

[michael davies]

ok i assume you are meaning this spec colour circled? i was under the impression these had no effect in FSX, but i am prob wrong. by default it is light grey, so i will try and remove the spec map, and change this instead

Ok,

So in Gmax you don't have an Aces tools icon at the top where you can drag down tools like ExportLOL, Animation manager, AttachPointTool etc etc ?. If you do then there should be one for FSXShaderTool, open it and it should look like my first image.

If not and you use the stock material editor then it will look a little different, only when materials are fully converted to FSX types will it look like mine, it looks like yours still has FS9 type formats, but no worry it should still work.

I've attached mine material manager and high lighted the relevant parts, make sure the diffuse and specular is locked, choose a darkish color, set specular and glossiness like mine, untick your specular color map, leave all its properties alone, just untick it.

I think when you add a specular map then it will ignore the material specularity and yes I was told material specularity would not work, but rest assured for some odd reason it most certainly works here.

When you showed the first compiled your model did you have a specular map attached ?, or have you added that this evening ?, just trying to define which might be the best path to help you.

Best

Michael

 

[UKMIL]

the original release model, as per the pics posted earlier did NOT have a spec map. i only added it tonight, and hence got the dark side as in my pics

 

[stiz]

problem fixed!! the bump maps where only half done, you forgot to change the alphas Heres the proccess http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1195605394

Also a couple of more things if i may

If you dont want to deleve into spec maps and what not yet then you can control the shine like you could with fs9 models as long as you tick the "base material has no spec map" (or something similer) in the material propiters. Another thing is that if you dont want to use a texture for a part and just want a colour, you can use any colour you want as long as its defined as a FSX material, otherwise it just goes jet black like the rotar bits and some bits and pieces in the cockpit.

Hope this helps

 

[UKMIL]

thanks stiz i will look at this, and patch the chinny accordingly after sorting the bump maps

 

[N2056]

aaarggh, now i am confused, on one hand, i am told to use material editor, on the other, use a texture:isadizzy:

They actually both work, and I've used it both ways :d
My understanding is that the less you change the shader settings the better the performance of the model in FSX.

Chuck Jodry has done a lot of work on textures...I'm guessing he'll have some input here that will prove helpful.

 

[michael davies]

In Gmax you use the Material Editor. For specular maps...the color is the reflected light color, and the alpha controls the size of the 'hotspot', darker alpha = tighter spot.
Also...changing shader values via the editor adds to the draw calls. My understanding is that you are better off adjusting values via texture.
Hope that helps...I've been messing with spec maps a lot lately :isadizzy:

There is a lot of info on this over at freeflightdesign :d

Interesting, I get no changes in draw calls with material specular added or none at all or any variation in between ?, I think once a material is mapped and allocated its alloted textures then draw calls should remain static, the sim cannot surely define draw calls on the change of a texture color ?, it should change with respect to how many features are added like specular, bump, diffuse etc, but surely not as to whats in each of those respective textures ?. The same logic should apply to the base material changes or edits, yes / no ?.

Specular maps are better for more detailed work, say in VCs where you want different specular levels on controls and such, they're good externally if you want to 'paint' on matt anti glare panels or matt exhaust staining, but for very large common material areas then a specular material might be better, especially if it appears to not effect draw calls....it doesn't here but thats no measure that it wont any where else.

All deeply intriguing stuff LOL.

Best

Michael

 

[UKMIL]

ok i have to figure this out, as i am using GIMP to make my bump maps. and the tutorials are for PS. so from what i see, i need to somehow, in gimp, extract the red channel and make it the alpha?

 

[stiz]

never used GIMP before but if theres a tab with "channels" or something along those lines then if should list the RGB (red,green,blue) channels + the alpha, if you find that it should just be a matter of copying+pasteing the red channel into the alpha channel, but thats all on theory, i dont even know if GIMP supports channels and what not :isadizzy:

 

[michael davies]

Well I use PSP so am going to have to work that out some time as well :isadizzy:.

Best

Michael

 

[N2056]

Micheal, I agree about this being intriguing!

I read about that shader thing on Adrian Wood's (?) Blog, on the official FSX website...

"Addtionally, as often as possible, use the textures to change the shader values as opposed to using the shader constants themselves. If you control reflection in the diffuse alpha and specular in the specular color and specular alpha, then you should be able to set the reflection and specular power term constants at max and use the texture values to adjust accordingly. You should be able to get rubber, metal, plastic and other surfaces in a single draw call just by adjusting the various portions of the textures. The only thing you should need new material constants for is something like glass, chrome or an object that is transparent or glows.
Also, make sure that all of the material textures are grouped. Put all the chrome on one sheet, because then you can have a single chrome material and a single chrome draw call. Do the same with glass, metal, etc. If you have 11 1024x1024 textures, and each of them has a chrome section, then you are forcing 11 new draw calls when you could have one."

I put off trying to figure this specular thing out for a long time because it seemed very convoluted to me, but having messed with it for awhile now it is starting to click. I have done a whole lot of 'trial & error' :costumes:

 

[N332DW]

try the material editor in Gmax , you can use a standard material for specular or a BMP -
SPECULAR LEVEL{amplitude} and GLOSSINES{bandwidth};
these enries in Gmax appear to be the same ones as the 3dsMax example above, ... but i could be wrong
View attachment 57422

 

[UKMIL]

ok, i have sorted the BUMP MAP which has eliminated the DARK SIDE i was seeing

i have set the SPEC using gmax Material editor to a darker grey

here is the result

 

[stiz]

looking goooood