JP (and co)'s Alphasim/Virtavia F-4 Revival for FSX/P3D
- Thread starter delta_lima
- Start date
Penz and all involved, take your time as long as you need!!! The project is such a nice gift that it is worth waiting for.
Fully agree.
Bob
AB, Power Curve and Throttle Settings
Originally Posted by expat 
I notice that the AB seems to comes in regardless of performance almost immediatly with any increase in acceleration. Most other sim aircraft engage the AB only when the throttle is at e.g., 95% of its maximum travel. This seems a bit more realistic. With the exisiting configuration, I find even if I want to accelerate even modestly from say 200 - 300 KIAS the AB kickis in when I don't want it to. Can this be looked at?
Observing this further, I don't thnk this is just an AB effect issue. The throttle also has a noticeable "ketchup bottle" effect - nothing, nothing, then WHOOSH! it all comes out at once -and goes from little power to massive power at one small spot along the throttle travel, rather than the power progressing evenly on a linear basis. Don't have this issue on other aircraft so don't need or want to change my throttle controls settings (though most turboprops have this issue on startup). No expert but a guess might be this could be tweaked in the air.cfg flight tuning or other sections.
I notice that the AB seems to comes in regardless of performance almost immediatly with any increase in acceleration. Most other sim aircraft engage the AB only when the throttle is at e.g., 95% of its maximum travel. This seems a bit more realistic. With the exisiting configuration, I find even if I want to accelerate even modestly from say 200 - 300 KIAS the AB kickis in when I don't want it to. Can this be looked at?
We will look into that, thank you for reporting!
Cheers,
JP
Observing this further, I don't thnk this is just an AB effect issue. The throttle also has a noticeable "ketchup bottle" effect - nothing, nothing, then WHOOSH! it all comes out at once -and goes from little power to massive power at one small spot along the throttle travel, rather than the power progressing evenly on a linear basis. Don't have this issue on other aircraft so don't need or want to change my throttle controls settings (though most turboprops have this issue on startup). No expert but a guess might be this could be tweaked in the air.cfg flight tuning or other sections.
Postbaer61
Bluebear
AB, Power Curve and Throttle Settings
Hi expat,
The afterburner effect are hardcoded with the model file and can't be tweaked in the air.cfg flight tuning or other sections.
They must be changed with modeldef.xml settings.
That's what i've done after i read your first post.
The afterburner effects was depended from the N1 rpm and not as usually from the throttle controls.
This is the reason why they appear somewhat delayed
I have set them now to both rpm and throttle, stage 1 at 77% and stage 2 ( with flame) at 95%.
The new effect settings will come with the next update.
Cheers
Ulrich
Hi expat,
The afterburner effect are hardcoded with the model file and can't be tweaked in the air.cfg flight tuning or other sections.
They must be changed with modeldef.xml settings.
That's what i've done after i read your first post.
The afterburner effects was depended from the N1 rpm and not as usually from the throttle controls.
This is the reason why they appear somewhat delayed
I have set them now to both rpm and throttle, stage 1 at 77% and stage 2 ( with flame) at 95%.
The new effect settings will come with the next update.
Cheers
Ulrich
Hi Ulrich, 'Expat',
Oh boy ….
Not sure what happened on this forum, but when trying to edit my long, original post on AB (which crossed with Ulrich's post), the original text got lost. * sigh*
So trying again, with both your reply's in mind:
First, if I read both your replies correctly, you are referrring to two different, and, in MSFS, independant things:
1. The visual effect of AB (Ulrich).
2. The FDE (thrust/speed) effect of AB (user 'Expat')
And what complicates it further: both the FDE effect and visual effect depends on what's possible in FSX/P3D and their versions.
- FS9, FSX-RTM/SP1/SP2 only knows a AB On or Off (FDE wise); although the visual AB effect can be split into two stages: the usual 'blue' lights in the engines exhausts (stage-1), plus the AB flames (stage-2).
Which can be implemented in the visual model itself (as Ulrich explains), or through visual effect files in the Effect folder (using a gauge that auto-controls 'lights').
- FSX-Accel (or 'Gold') , Steam and P3D has a so-called Multi-stage AB (like in the default FA-18 Hornet) , which can be simulated both FDE-wise , and visually, in the model code.
So the question is: are we optimising this (FDE-wise and visually) for FSX-Accel and up, or not ??
On top of that:
The FDE-effect (speed/thrust) of AB is simulated in the .air file: table 1524 ('Turbine Afterburner Thrust vs. Mach no').
So you can make AB thrust depending on Mach speed (which is how it should be); in the current version of the .air file, this is now a flat curve (none, or max). Which could/should be improved.
Which explains the remark made by 'Expat', about full AB accelleration kicking in even at 200 knots or so. This is indeed not correct.
Furthermore, in FSX-Accel and up, in the aircraft.cfg you can define a number of AB-stages: varying from first-stage (at a defined 'min-throttle-%) to n-th stage (at '100%-throttle).
Again, this FDE-effect is independant on how it's visually modelled; either with model-included or external visual .fx effect files.
To model this AB effect (FDE-wise and visually) properly, I would suggest that this F4 project is intented for FSX-Accel as minimum platform requirement.
Not just related to AB, but for some other reasons as well (don't get me started on the mis-conception of many FS users that FSX-Accel is just FSX-SP2 + a few added aircraft … LoL )
Cheers, Rob
Oh boy ….
Not sure what happened on this forum, but when trying to edit my long, original post on AB (which crossed with Ulrich's post), the original text got lost. * sigh*
So trying again, with both your reply's in mind:
First, if I read both your replies correctly, you are referrring to two different, and, in MSFS, independant things:
1. The visual effect of AB (Ulrich).
2. The FDE (thrust/speed) effect of AB (user 'Expat')
And what complicates it further: both the FDE effect and visual effect depends on what's possible in FSX/P3D and their versions.
- FS9, FSX-RTM/SP1/SP2 only knows a AB On or Off (FDE wise); although the visual AB effect can be split into two stages: the usual 'blue' lights in the engines exhausts (stage-1), plus the AB flames (stage-2).
Which can be implemented in the visual model itself (as Ulrich explains), or through visual effect files in the Effect folder (using a gauge that auto-controls 'lights').
- FSX-Accel (or 'Gold') , Steam and P3D has a so-called Multi-stage AB (like in the default FA-18 Hornet) , which can be simulated both FDE-wise , and visually, in the model code.
So the question is: are we optimising this (FDE-wise and visually) for FSX-Accel and up, or not ??
On top of that:
The FDE-effect (speed/thrust) of AB is simulated in the .air file: table 1524 ('Turbine Afterburner Thrust vs. Mach no').
So you can make AB thrust depending on Mach speed (which is how it should be); in the current version of the .air file, this is now a flat curve (none, or max). Which could/should be improved.
Which explains the remark made by 'Expat', about full AB accelleration kicking in even at 200 knots or so. This is indeed not correct.
Furthermore, in FSX-Accel and up, in the aircraft.cfg you can define a number of AB-stages: varying from first-stage (at a defined 'min-throttle-%) to n-th stage (at '100%-throttle).
Again, this FDE-effect is independant on how it's visually modelled; either with model-included or external visual .fx effect files.
To model this AB effect (FDE-wise and visually) properly, I would suggest that this F4 project is intented for FSX-Accel as minimum platform requirement.
Not just related to AB, but for some other reasons as well (don't get me started on the mis-conception of many FS users that FSX-Accel is just FSX-SP2 + a few added aircraft … LoL )
Cheers, Rob
Jafo
SOH-CM-2024
In FSX you can have any number of visual effect 'stages' you like....using the light section...or better still the smoke....so you don't turn on your landing lights or something during a 'stage'.
I've been changing all my 'fiddling' to smoke in xml....stages like....smoke only, small glow [and smoke], large glow [and smoke], full AB [and smoke] ....and set it to engine rpm, not throttle...as therr ought to be a 'lag' as the turbine winds up. By the time you have 4 stages and 4 engines [fsx limit] you've run out of 'lights' anyway...but not smoke....so you can have engines shut down along with their effects [as they should be]...
I've been changing all my 'fiddling' to smoke in xml....stages like....smoke only, small glow [and smoke], large glow [and smoke], full AB [and smoke] ....and set it to engine rpm, not throttle...as therr ought to be a 'lag' as the turbine winds up. By the time you have 4 stages and 4 engines [fsx limit] you've run out of 'lights' anyway...but not smoke....so you can have engines shut down along with their effects [as they should be]...
FlyingsCool
SOH-CM-2019
I just posted this info over in the P3D forum, but assuming some people don't follow both, I thought some might find this info interesting...
There's a ton of different flight manuals and information here at this site, including flight manuals and books on the F-4 in all its versions (and tons of other aircraft).
http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/
For consolidated info, the aircraft SAC's (Standard Aircraft Characteristics) have a lot of condensed info
Here's one for the F-4J http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com...-aircraft.html
and for the F-4B http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com...-aircraft.html
I didn't see a SAC for the F-4E, but the guy who runs the site is totally open to finding the documents you might ask for. He was an Engineer at Douglas Aircraft, and the F-4 is a particular favorite of his.
hint: Many of the document links are stored at postimg.org, which apparently changed their address, modify the url to postimage.org and the link will work.
Oh, and it's best to try to download documents after the first of the month as the download limits get reset every month at some of the sites he stores documents at. It's not that you can't download documents, but, especially at one particular site, after a certain limit, you only get one download an hour. Before that, it just goes straight to download as much as you want.
There's a ton of different flight manuals and information here at this site, including flight manuals and books on the F-4 in all its versions (and tons of other aircraft).
http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/
For consolidated info, the aircraft SAC's (Standard Aircraft Characteristics) have a lot of condensed info
Here's one for the F-4J http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com...-aircraft.html
and for the F-4B http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com...-aircraft.html
I didn't see a SAC for the F-4E, but the guy who runs the site is totally open to finding the documents you might ask for. He was an Engineer at Douglas Aircraft, and the F-4 is a particular favorite of his.
hint: Many of the document links are stored at postimg.org, which apparently changed their address, modify the url to postimage.org and the link will work.
Oh, and it's best to try to download documents after the first of the month as the download limits get reset every month at some of the sites he stores documents at. It's not that you can't download documents, but, especially at one particular site, after a certain limit, you only get one download an hour. Before that, it just goes straight to download as much as you want.
Lots of good info there, thanks Flyingscool! 
I got a missile package from Kurt, and have incorporated it in the weapons pack. Now I "just" need to rewrite the loadout gauge code to add the AIM-120 and AGM-65 (not really looking forward to that, but it has to be done!).
Cheers,
JP
I got a missile package from Kurt, and have incorporated it in the weapons pack. Now I "just" need to rewrite the loadout gauge code to add the AIM-120 and AGM-65 (not really looking forward to that, but it has to be done!).
Cheers,
JP
FlyingsCool
SOH-CM-2019
That looks freakin' gorgeous Jens!
delta_lima
Charter Member 2015
Thanks JP! Gonna be a long day at the office .... 
What carrier are you using in your screenie? Looks really nice!
I'm sure it'll be a superb work of art, as the versions leading up to it have demonstrated.
thanks in advance,
dl
What carrier are you using in your screenie? Looks really nice!
I'm sure it'll be a superb work of art, as the versions leading up to it have demonstrated.
thanks in advance,
dl
Hehe, it's just the stock FS carrier with some 70's aircraft added by me. It makes a pretty good Kitty Hawk.What carrier are you using in your screenie? Looks really nice!
Cheers,
JP
FlyingsCool
SOH-CM-2019
Hi Rob,
Sorry I missed your post previously, that's some awesome info.
In my opinion, yes, I think it is in everyone's best interest to optimize for Accel/Steam and above.
To that end, what would the problem be in doing that for users who do not have Accel?
Is SP2 enough? (I'm thinking everybody has loaded that, and the only difference between Accel/Steam and SP2 is the lack of the F-18.dll?)
thanks again for all that you do.
Tom
(P.S. I don't understand why I can't reply with quote to your post, the quote isn't showing up. I had to cut and paste it in.)
I use various AI and old FS9 models that I process in ModelConverterX, then I merge them together (also in ModelConverterX) to form a "deck unit" model that I can add to the carrier formation in AICarriers.
I don't know the WombRaider Kitty Hawk, but yeah sure, something similar could be done for any carrier.
Cheers,
JP