Gentlemen, please - could we agree on this?

Olham54

The Bordeaux-Red Baron
We all seem to be rather happy - most of us really excited - about the latest patched version of "Between Heaven and Hell".

I think, we all agree in that we would like the OFF Team to sell thousands of copies, because this sim is absolutely top ranking.
Pol and Winder asked us several times, to care about the fact, that this is an open forum. People, who just enter for a quick look, see the title lines first.

So, could we agree on a simple forum rule: not to write anything like "Bug" or "bugged" or similar, into the title line?
It's the least, we all could do to help a little - not to be destructive.
Thank you all for reading so far.
 
Does that include putting the word Bug**r into a title then? :wiggle:
 
Absolutely right my good man. What you say is in our best interests. Let's do us a favor and mind our words. At least in the topic heading. Free speech, yes indeed. Just give some consideration to the big picture please. I'm not faulting anyone. I have been unhappy with some of my posts myself.
 
to play devils advocate... So you want people to find out about the good and the bad after they buy it? I'm more apt to buy when i know the good and bad, not just the good...
 
Is there anything bad? Besides heart attacks, sweat, shivering, fear attacks, paranoia, and anything else comes to mind.

Maybe OBD should hand a printout: For advice ask your physican.........:ernae:
 
I know many are thrilled with this game. I am not. I believe it good and well worth the money. I am enjoying it. I recommend it. There are several groups that a game must appeal too to make it a hit. Onliners, Modders, Campainers. And sub groups of those. Onliners fall in two groups: furball dogfighters, co-op mission. Modders fall in at least two camps: fm/dm modders, skinners, campain makers, world makers. OFF3 just does not appeal to all groups and I am sure I missed some groups too. It is unlikely that SOW and or ROF will hit all markets either. Me, I fall into the the furball dogfighters. I simply must have believable plane behavior and no appearance of lag. Great visuals are nice but secondary for me. That is how I see it, how do you see it?
 
RE: Thrilled

I know many are thrilled with this game. I am not. I believe it good and well worth the money. I am enjoying it. ...

Good honest comment there. I'm in the thrilled with it category.

The game is all one could ask for at this point, IMHO. However, there is one community issue -- I'd like to see online squads and jastas supporting this game -- hopefully, patch 1.2 is facilitating that community development.
:rapture:
 
I know many are thrilled with this game. I am not. I believe it good and well worth the money. I am enjoying it. I recommend it. There are several groups that a game must appeal too to make it a hit. Onliners, Modders, Campainers. And sub groups of those. Onliners fall in two groups: furball dogfighters, co-op mission. Modders fall in at least two camps: fm/dm modders, skinners, campain makers, world makers. OFF3 just does not appeal to all groups and I am sure I missed some groups too. It is unlikely that SOW and or ROF will hit all markets either. Me, I fall into the the furball dogfighters. I simply must have believable plane behavior and no appearance of lag. Great visuals are nice but secondary for me. That is how I see it, how do you see it?








Ok.....I'll bite....

I see it like this. The game wasn't intended to make multi-player functionality it's main attraction, or even an attraction at all really, particularly not the furball dogfighter aspect of it. I'm sure that's due in no small part to the inherently limited capabilities of CFS3 itself in that regard, and it's rather crappy netcode. Having said that, I'm also fairly confident that it'll allow for a moderately decent co-op experience once some minor problems get sorted out. Just ask any of the guys if they were happy with what Phase II offered in that regard. Show me anywhere on the Over Flanders Fields website where it advertises or even mentions anything about BHaH offering online players anything to get excited about, or even interested in for that matter. It doesn't, and there's a very good reason for that. It was never intended to attract that specific corner of the market.

As far as the fm/dm modders, skinners and world makers are concerned, it's pretty obvious to me that they could have a hayday with the base CFS3 package. If BHaH is any example at all, I'd say there's a wealth of potential there for people who are inclined to alter CFS3 from it's original form. I'd also be so bold as to say they'd have to be a cut above the average modder in terms of their skills. Once again, having said that, I don't think the developers of BHaH released this addon with the intention of it being user-friendly in terms of it's modability. It's already a "complete" modification, so why would they even worry about catering to that specific niche?? If people wanna' put Indochina, F4 Phantoms and Mig 15's in it.....let 'em start from scratch the way OBD did.

As far as campaign making goes, I'm pretty sure you could put together a very impressive (online or offline) campaign with it right now. All it would take is a little imagination, a reasonable amount of patience and knowledge, and you'd be off to the races. I'm totally ignoring the fact that there's a "dynamic" single player campaign already built right into it, and for obvious reasons.

The main thing is, you didn't miss the entire point of Olham's post. If you had, you'd have started an entirely new thread with a title that said "I know many are thrilled with this game, but I am NOT because the online play SUCKS", and that's exactly the kind of thing I think he was tagging as somewhat inappropriate.

I think we can almost safely assume that when he posed the question "Gentlemen, please - could we agree on this?" you decided you could?? I believe you have.....unless I misinterpreted something somewhere in your post.


By the way, I'd say the game is a "hit".....regardless of it's online limitations.


Cheers,

Parky
 
to play devils advocate... So you want people to find out about the good and the bad after they buy it? I'm more apt to buy when i know the good and bad, not just the good...

No, THORNY, that's not what I wanted to say.
All I asked here for, was, that we won't write such word-bombs like "Bug" or "bugged" into THE TITLE LINE.
In the thread, you may go further, but the title is, what remains open to see all the time.
Everyone should consider first: have I driven my system to the edge, by overclocking? Could it be something wrong on my end? Etc.
And not immediately shout "bug" all over the street.

That would be like a kid, putting two and a half bricks on it's plastic truck, and then scream: "Mummy, the wheels have come off!"

We're not kids round here - even when we like to play...
 
Don't arbitrarily shout "BUG!" because from what I've seen, 9 times out of 10, it's not a bug at all. Usually the problem lies with the end user or his machine.

CJ
 
I think, it's understood, and I say thank you all for treating this thread and my call so respectfully.
I had actually expected, that at least one of you would place this, but as no one else did it, I might do it myself now, just to close with a bit of a smile(y):
:amen:


PS: Forgot: Davy, are you new round here - then: welcome! Or did you only change your avatar (what would it have been before then??)
 
You know, I certainly understand the premise of your request, Olham - I do. And, on the surface, I'd agree.

However, you can't pick and choose. No one here seems to mind the titles that read how wonderful OFF is (and do a count sometime, there are far more good than bad). But, let one person come here who doesn't agree? Must be something wrong with his rig, or with the person's expectations, or..or...he's just an ass.

Whatever.

I honestly gave up. It's just far (far) too biased in here to get objectivity - and that's my opinion, like it or lump it. No, I never started a thread with words like "bugged" (in fact, I don't recall ever starting one, period). But you can't tell other people how to think.

Things are what they are. You start charging the full price of a stand-alone game, and further still actually *hope* to sell in any volume...you have to drink the water with the wine. There will be those who aren't thrilled, and they also have every right to speak their minds. Does anyone honestly believe this same thing doesn't happen on every website supporting every game that's got a forum? Of course it does. Guess what? That's business - deal with it.

Besides, anyone who reads a forum (hell, anyone who reads anything) should be able to form their own opinion; hopefully being objective enough to sort the good and the bad. Being brutally honest isn't welcomed by many people, I've found, because it spoils their need to see things the way they want to see them.

If you want my honest opinion, I think that the 'good' comments are far more overdone around here than the bad ones are critical. Most of the bad ones I've seen have specifics; particular observations that actually explain *why* the bad comment. By comparison, I've seen some remarkably flowery writing - some of it was actually called a "review", God forbid...while what was written simply waxed poetic, on and on, about how beautiful it looks, etc. It *does* look great...but there's way more to a flight sim than that.

It literally got to the point that people were commenting on the wonderful writing ability of the reviewer (which wasn't all that great)...and we call this "objective"? I mean, honestly, people are just falling all over themselves in here. And if you don't go along...well, you're scum. You're not doing it right. Your machine sucks...always something.

Let people speak their minds. If they're right, then the reader deserves to know *both* the good and bad. Maybe the right people will take note and respond to the negative reviews (and rightfully so). If they're wrong, then a. it'll come out eventually, and b. the wise support team would use the initial negatives as an opportunity to showcase a positive (their commitment to supporting their product, even in the face of criticism).
 
You know, I certainly understand the premise of your request, Olham - I do. And, on the surface, I'd agree.

However, you can't pick and choose. No one here seems to mind the titles that read how wonderful OFF is (and do a count sometime, there are far more good than bad). But, let one person come here who doesn't agree? Must be something wrong with his rig, or with the person's expectations, or..or...he's just an ass.

Whatever.

I honestly gave up. It's just far (far) too biased in here to get objectivity - and that's my opinion, like it or lump it. No, I never started a thread with words like "bugged" (in fact, I don't recall ever starting one, period). But you can't tell other people how to think.

Things are what they are. You start charging the full price of a stand-alone game, and further still actually *hope* to sell in any volume...you have to drink the water with the wine. There will be those who aren't thrilled, and they also have every right to speak their minds. Does anyone honestly believe this same thing doesn't happen on every website supporting every game that's got a forum? Of course it does. Guess what? That's business - deal with it.

Besides, anyone who reads a forum (hell, anyone who reads anything) should be able to form their own opinion; hopefully being objective enough to sort the good and the bad. Being brutally honest isn't welcomed by many people, I've found, because it spoils their need to see things the way they want to see them.

If you want my honest opinion, I think that the 'good' comments are far more overdone around here than the bad ones are critical. Most of the bad ones I've seen have specifics; particular observations that actually explain *why* the bad comment. By comparison, I've seen some remarkably flowery writing - some of it was actually called a "review", God forbid...while what was written simply waxed poetic, on and on, about how beautiful it looks, etc. It *does* look great...but there's way more to a flight sim than that.

It literally got to the point that people were commenting on the wonderful writing ability of the reviewer (which wasn't all that great)...and we call this "objective"? I mean, honestly, people are just falling all over themselves in here. And if you don't go along...well, you're scum. You're not doing it right. Your machine sucks...always something.

Let people speak their minds. If they're right, then the reader deserves to know *both* the good and bad. Maybe the right people will take note and respond to the negative reviews (and rightfully so). If they're wrong, then a. it'll come out eventually, and b. the wise support team would use the initial negatives as an opportunity to showcase a positive (their commitment to supporting their product, even in the face of criticism).

I agree. And I've been banned from more sites than I can remember. Not for slagging a game usually but for defending myself too well against the usual barrage of crap from the mob-mentality fan-bois.

I certainly never "try to like" a game. I tell it like it is, and hang the consequences.

I've liked very few games since RB2-3D. And "like" is the operative word, because even those I've liked have fallen well short of lovability. There's always something that gets far enough up my nose to make the place on the dusty shelf an inevitability. My reputation is cast in solid stone, my expectations are way beyond the point of reasonableness.

So for me to be sucked back into playing this, day after day after day..."god, I'm tired of it, I have combat fatigue...ah go on then, just one more mission..."

I'm highly objective, by my own lights, and I'll curry no favour. I even fell out with Oleg Maddox, having initially been one of his greatest supporters and online friends, when he talked crap about stuff on the subject of which he was eventually proved wrong. Got my name in the credits of two IL2-series manuals. But when the cards have to fall let them fall where they may.

Which brings me to OFF. It's unique since RB2-3D, at least for me, because there's nothing in it that gets up my nose. Minor flaws and tiny irritations (the claims-page for example), but it's all minor stuff that detracts in no appreciable way from the strengths, and I know it'll be put right. The game has solid and timely support, already proven.

So Olham's request/suggestion is reasonable to me, not to throw molotovs out the door. There's nothing about this game that's worthy of losing it sales.

On the other hand, if somebody wants to put "BUGGED" in a title, if they've paid their money, and the post isn't a blatant troll, that's their moral right. Something that's of a minor irritation to me might be something that's right up their nose. I, and nobody else, has any right to judge that person's call about something that's important to him.

The game is what it is, let it stand or fall on it's own strengths or wealnesses. The cards will find their own path, as they do with all games, regardless of what people say about them, good or bad.
 
Perfection is not acheivable perhaps. But I am so happy to have this thing that means so much to me. Somebody has made this thing possible for me. The time spent, hard work, talent and sacrifice to make this sim is way beyond me. I try to put myself in the dev team's shoes a little. After all the effort it must be exasperating to not have everybody just happy enough to soil themselves or at least enjoy the moment and have some fun. Maybe it comes with the territorry, maybe they have been through all this many times before, P1 & P2. I'll stand by this community too. Very helpful and generous. I've seen very little in the way of put downs. Some things are meant in jest and I laugh a great deal, thankful for the good humor. Say what you want. I just did. And once more ,thanks.
 
Cliff,
to put that right: I'm not a member of the OFF dev team, nor am I in any way gaining any profits from the game, other than the excitement of playing it.

I won't tell anyone, what to think (I'm not god, and even he doesn't do that). I didn't tell you, what to write. And I can't wipe out your words.
Here in my homeland, that has been done to the worst; when in 1933, bonfires of books were burning, and I'd hate that to happen ever again.
So don't call me a censor - a censor has the power to eliminate words.

If you read my lines again, without prejudice, you'll see, that I asked people, if we could agree on not writing destructive word-bombs into the title lines.
Not more.
And my reason is this: the OFF Team has developed this sim, different to other major projects, out of enthusiasm, without any bigger financial support or background. They had given Phase 1 and Phase 2 to everyone for free. They had asked for donations to be made, but usually, that doesn't work too well, and it didn't, as far as I know.
Now, that they released "Between Heaven and Hell", it comes out without any commercials. Mouth-to-mouth propaganda, and this forum, seem to be the most so far to happen.

Seeing this being a very good simulation, I would just wish them all possible success. And if you see it similarly, I hope, you understand my thread.

PS: well spoken, Siggi, and Rickitycrate
 
Interesting. Olham, Let's "put some things right" as you say:

1. I didn't say - or even imply - that you were a member of the OFF dev team, or related in any way to OFF. I have no idae where you took that from.

2. Nor did I say you were a 'censor' - that word doesn't even appear in my post. I simply said you can't control what people think, and that's totally - utterly - true.

I read your post carefully enough - without prejudice - to know that you're asking people to do something they may or may not want to do.

See what I mean about people not welcoming honesty?

I was being nothing more (or less) than being totally honest, in my post.
 
Ok.....I'll bite....

I see it like this. The game wasn't intended to make multi-player functionality it's main attraction, or even an attraction at all really, particularly not the furball dogfighter aspect of it. I'm sure that's due in no small part to the inherently limited capabilities of CFS3 itself in that regard, and it's rather crappy netcode. Having said that, I'm also fairly confident that it'll allow for a moderately decent co-op experience once some minor problems get sorted out. Just ask any of the guys if they were happy with what Phase II offered in that regard. Show me anywhere on the Over Flanders Fields website where it advertises or even mentions anything about BHaH offering online players anything to get excited about, or even interested in for that matter. It doesn't, and there's a very good reason for that. It was never intended to attract that specific corner of the market.

As far as the fm/dm modders, skinners and world makers are concerned, it's pretty obvious to me that they could have a hayday with the base CFS3 package. If BHaH is any example at all, I'd say there's a wealth of potential there for people who are inclined to alter CFS3 from it's original form. I'd also be so bold as to say they'd have to be a cut above the average modder in terms of their skills. Once again, having said that, I don't think the developers of BHaH released this addon with the intention of it being user-friendly in terms of it's modability. It's already a "complete" modification, so why would they even worry about catering to that specific niche?? If people wanna' put Indochina, F4 Phantoms and Mig 15's in it.....let 'em start from scratch the way OBD did.

As far as campaign making goes, I'm pretty sure you could put together a very impressive (online or offline) campaign with it right now. All it would take is a little imagination, a reasonable amount of patience and knowledge, and you'd be off to the races. I'm totally ignoring the fact that there's a "dynamic" single player campaign already built right into it, and for obvious reasons.

The main thing is, you didn't miss the entire point of Olham's post. If you had, you'd have started an entirely new thread with a title that said "I know many are thrilled with this game, but I am NOT because the online play SUCKS", and that's exactly the kind of thing I think he was tagging as somewhat inappropriate.

I think we can almost safely assume that when he posed the question "Gentlemen, please - could we agree on this?" you decided you could?? I believe you have.....unless I misinterpreted something somewhere in your post.


By the way, I'd say the game is a "hit".....regardless of it's online limitations.


Cheers,

Parky

Very well said, thanks! :ernae:

And thanks to the many other positive comments.. it isn't that we don't want input on problems or pointing out things that may have escaped the beta tests, or suggestions for improvements, it's the way it's presented. I've seen many posts that make comments in the thread subject like, "BUG FOUND.." with out the devs (or others) even having a chance to try to help and it often being a problem that can be solved or is a peculiarity that is only experienced by a few players.

OFF is a very special effort by a small group of mostly Red Baron raised eccentrics, not one that you will likely ever run into again.. a team of diverse contributors from many different fields and countries who just happen to love this SIM period of history, all in their different contributing ways. It obviously isn't a money making driven project or you wouldn't have enjoyed the free versions you have or the quick response on line with patches. I hope there is enough sales to give us something back for all of our efforts, but I also hope that it will lead to further advances and it isn't going to happen if it falls apart because of a loss of enthusiasm and support from those who dive into it.. We hope you will jump into BHH and try to enjoy the experience, not point out every fault. Yes, we do need feedback and suggestions and they are welcome, but just present them in the right tone and you will be welcome, thanks again.
 
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