Gentlemen, please - could we agree on this?

I see at least Olham had the courage to *directly* answer my proposal (and with honesty, at that...cool). (And no, Parky, you didn't come close - although you did a fantastic job of evading a direct answer. And, for my money, you are nowhere near as articulate as you think..wordy, yes, but only so as to confuse an issue).

Come on - join the show, you're welcome. Write something funny, or crazy, or whatever. Respect included.
Would that be okay for you?

Now, there's an offer I can work with:

I have *never* started a thread at all, much less one laced with negatives. I think OFF is actually pretty fantastic, myself - always have (and I've said so, many times). It's clearly a 'leader in it's class', at least for now. You'll get no argument from me on *any* of these points.

However - if we're going to be objective (as *ANY* review worth its salt should be), let's face it: OFF is still limited by at least a few of the same nagging little issues CFS3 had. Primarily, that of graphics performance. You look down at my system specs (sig line), consider that I've tried every tweak on this and other forums I can find, etc. etc. etc. I'm sorry, it just comes down to the simple fact: CFS3 was poorly behaved, graphically speaking, and OFF inherited (at least some of) that.

Now, in fairness, I don't own P3 (yet). I say yet, because I frankly decided to wait and see if it got any better in P3 before I paid for it. And that's my right; I think Siggi called it an 'informed choice' - and he's right.

Surely enough, the poll went up - and fully 25% of those polled agreed they weren't satisifed with the graphics performance.

Now, I know 1.2 was released (promptly) and that's great. Maybe that helped. But, I do find it interesting that the Devs saw fit to even work on a patch, if - like everyone insisted - there wasn't anything to work *on*. Fact is, there was. And you guys can all bust my a** all you want, but you can't change what the poll proved, nor that the patch made a change where it was needed. Maybe I'll buy P3 now that the patch is out - but (back to informed choices) I'll be waiting a bit more, thanks.

As I already explained - and others have echoed - the playing field changed substantially when it was decided to charge full retail of a stand-alone game for this product. For my money, even a slight problem with graphics on my rig isn't acceptable. I run Call of Duty World at War wide open - no issues. I run Age of Empires 3 - no issues. I run Company of Heroes - no issues. All these are well-known to be relatively demanding, graphics-wise, but I have no problem running them wide-a** open.

But somehow, it's my rig's fault that OFF stutters? Sorry, I think not. Yes, many get *average* frame rates of perhaps 50+ (assuming you don't set the frame rate limit as some have). But the discussion of frame rates? Average frame rates don't come close to telling the whole story. Tell me: Exactly how many frames go by in the second that it takes the enemy to plant a bullet in your head? A stutter at the wrong moment is deadly - and there *is* no right moment.

Tell me someone has a machine that runs with *no* stutters (none, zero, notta) - not anywhere, not any time...and then let's look at how much money they threw at it to run that way...

Well, I think you see the nature of my issue. I think it's not very objective to carry on so, when there's clearly something I've seen - and so have others. Even some who praise OFF fairly highly have still mentioned an 'occasional stutter'.

I hope that's objective enough.
 
Cassic!

Another pleasant suggestion turned into a slug fest........been there....and as was suggested to me by experts........."just play the game"....which, as it turned out, was a great suggestion......all this puntering is really a side show, a distraction..........cuz the game looks great, plays great.....and all this stuff gets worked on whether it's improvements are requested in a polite fashion or a negative one. Anybody married out there? How many of you have asked your wife for something, been vilified for your thoughtless temerity, resented the hell out of it........yet held your tongue (we can learn), and been astonished when your wishes were met after all. Same deal here.......wish my marriage were by and large as civilized as this forum generally is. GAW
 
Ok....I'll say my last little piece here and let this debate rest....once and for all. I read your last post carefully, Cliff. Based on what you've said there, perhaps the best thing to do is ask the devs to fire you off an e-mail when Between Heaven and Hell is absolutely perfect. Not just "pretty fantastic" or "a leader in it's class", but absolutely and unquestionably flawless. That way you're guaranteed it'll run as wonderfully as Call of Duty, Age of Empires and Company of Heroes do on your specific hardware, and that way there'll be no potential for disappointment whatsoever.

It's pretty much like Gaw quoting the experts as having said "just play the game". Well it's fairly impossible to do that if you don't own it, and it's also apparent that you won't own it until it's been perfected to the point you feel comfortable enough to actually do so. You said yourself "For my money, even a slight problem with graphics on my rig isn't acceptable" and that sir, in and of itself, is reason enough for you not to waste your money just yet. Why set yourself up for that kind of letdown, when according to you that's almost inevitable??

If it were me, and I had all those other games to play that ran so smoothly and were basically "perfect", I sure as hell wouldn't be wasting my time in here. Certainly not for the sole purpose of more or less clearly stating that it's highly unlikely BHaH will ever meet up to my personal standards or requirements. I'd be playing those other games that do. It'd be far more fun, and certainly far less annoying....and I do mean for all concerned parties.


That wasn't intended to be objective either. Just brutally honest.


Cheers,

Parky
 
Ah...again with the attacks on me and what I expect. Did we somehow overlook that 25% of the people who responded (in the poll) said it wasn't up to *their* standards, either? I guess they're all wrong, too - right?

And, I do play those other games - none of which I find perfect, if we're being honest. Just that they certainly don't have problems graphically - only mentioned to point out that my rig isn't the problem (which is usually blamed, one way or another). I didn't say they were perfect - you need to learn how to read, dude. And stop contorting what I say.

As for it being 'far less annoying', well, a. that's your opinion, and b. it's a free country, and a free forum, last I checked. Face it, pal - you don't like when people don't agree with you, period.

Personally, I find you and your 'throw money at the problem' technical advice a tad annoying, but I didn't say so - oh, wait, I just did (oops). But, as long as you're here, you needn't worry, there's a long parade of smoocher-uppers just waiting to kiss your behind. Whatever.

*ahem* Now. I play OFF -as I have other flight sims - because I like flight sims. Don't think I could readily get that from the other games I mentioned. But I guess that's beyond your level of comprehension, huh?

I guess, in your world, people aren't allowed to have varied interests. Not surprising, since (in your world) they're all required to see things as you do.

I never once asked, expected, or implied that OFF should be 'perfect' - stop puttings words in my mouth, please. I said, very clearly (if you could read) that it has problems I find unacceptable. And there's factual evidence to support my position (not limited to the aforementioned 25%).

But you don't like dealing with facts, I know.

I've said all along, and this thread proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt - you disagree with certain people here, or say anything less than total sunshine-up-the-skirt about this product, and you're an outcast.

What-freakin-ever.
 
Cliff: Your observation about the fps vote by WM is flawed, 75% said they are happy, 25% said they are not satisfied yet. But just because a number of posters aren't happy with their fps doesn't mean there is a problem with BHH, it means that they are either being over critical or they have problems with thier rigs, or they don't have updated equipment and are trying to run it on settings too high.

And.. have you seen any game company run polls on subjects like this, have you seen any game companie man their forums with their top creators and answer questions, listen to suggestions and problems and then act on them so quickly? Yet you want to twist this around as some how proof that their are problems.. GADS, you are really amazing.

I'm a case in point for the fps issue as not being a ligitimate issue.. a two year old economy home built system and my fps are just fine. I've seen some slight stutters, it isn't any thing major, but I'm not you, maybe if you flew on my computer you would shrink back in horror at seeing these slight stalls, I don't know. Maybe what you have experienced with phase II that makes you unhappy is a problem some where or you are overyly critical, again, I don't know.

But your post is a perfect example of a bad mouth attitude based on assumptions instead of fact. If you posted a new thread titled, "BHH has fps problems, proven by the WM poll" it would fit in with my point about the negative type post reactions that only hurt our efforts, instead of being constructive.

BTW, here are my system specs from my post on that poll:

I spent several hours this afternoon flying in campaign and the fps was mostly around 55-60 with the lows in the 40's and ocassionally going lower for briefl moments. No problems so far, except for clouds!

Sliders in the Setup in workshop: Aircraft, Effects on 5, Clouds on 4, both terrain sliders on 3 and it looks beautiful!

Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R Northbridge P45 Exp. LGA 775 ATX MOB
Intel core 2 duo E6600 2.4ghz (not over clocked)
Patriot Extreme 2gb DDR2 SDRAM
Antec Trio TP3-650w ATX12v
EVGA PCIEx GeForce 8800gts 320mb
SB Audigy 2ZS
Windows XP Pro SP3
2x WD Sata HD 3gb 16mb cache
SATA DVD/CD R/RW

(nothing is overclocked)
 
cliff527 said:
Tell me someone has a machine that runs with *no* stutters (none, zero, notta) - not anywhere, not any time...and then let's look at how much money they threw at it to run that way...
Click to expand...

With no intent to fan the fire in response to your comment, I just wanted to mention at no time have I experienced stutter in OFF 3 with my custom built base system (CM case, Evga 750i mobo, E8400, Zalman CPU cooler, 4 gigs of 800 MHz RAM, 250 GB HD, DVD/RW, 860W/62amp single rail PS, and XP/Home w/SP2) which cost less than $1400 (US) including sales tax. Even adding the cost of the Dell 20" ultra sharp LCD monitor, Evga GTX 260-216 SC GPU, Saitek Eclipse II KB and Logitech MX 518 mouse which I already had the total cost would have been less than $2200 - hardly an amount I'd call excessive on a performance to cost ratio.
 
cliff527 said:
I see no one - not one of you - has chosen to answer my proposal: I propose that no thread should be titled with any bias - good or bad. Plain and simple - and more importantly, neutral. Fair and reasonable.

It's totally fair and equitable - no one gets any advantage that anyone else doesn't get.

Yet, curiosly, no one's answered.

That tells me all I need to know. You people don't want fair, equitable, objective or anything close.
Click to expand...

Hi Cliff,

I think you're missing the intent of Oldham's original request

I think we all need to step back and look at what we have here in OFF
WWI is a much ignored and forgotten era in world history
The vast majority of simmers prefer Jets and WWII if props are considered at all
The fact that a small group of enthusiasts got together and created this indepth rendition of the birth of airial warfare astounds me

Yeah, if you consider the cost of the BH&H mod vs. commercial standalone sims, it's high
But if you consider the content (gigs of skins, 38 planes, etc. etc.) and the small customer base, it's really quite reasonable
Kind of like buying wine, you can get a generic red for $10, but if you want fine quality, it'll cost much more

And who really benefits from BH&H?
Certainly not the Devs!
They haven't made any profit from this
Any donations/fees go to websites, download bandwith, and possibly for a P4 edition (There were hints of dumping cfs3 and getting our own engine)

It's quite apparent to me that we end users are the real beneficiaries in this deal
You stated in a later post...
cliff527 said:
I think OFF is actually pretty fantastic, myself - always have (and I've said so, many times). It's clearly a 'leader in it's class', at least for now.
Click to expand...
...so I assume you consider yourself a beneficiary too

So who loses when OFF gets slammed in Post Titles? ...we do!
And how many of these slams are legitimate?
Next to none, mostly compatability issues that have fixes in place already

I think what Oldham was asking was that we (voluntarily) be careful in how we title our posts
"Bugged, sucks" can turn off potential new members/supporters
As the saying goes "1st impression are lasting impressions"
"I need help, What am I doing wrong, Can't get this to run right" might be better choices than slam verbage, especially when the slam is probably a known issue with an easy fix

No one is trying to limit freedom of speech
Just asking for some restraint and considertion of the ramifications
Keep any stronger language in the body of the post ...please
They'll still get through to the devs
Heck, they've already created 2 updates in about a month of release!
These guys are still spot on the job, tweaking & tuning their/our baby

So to answer your question (finally, I know) praise, even bubbly comments are quite legitmate for a product that is "pretty fantastic" and "a leader in it's class"
Slams & harsh complaints are probably not legitimate and usually the result of a frustrated user letting off steam

In the end, you can post anything within Sim-OH limits
But what's really getting accomplished?

Cheers,
 
Hey, how about someone putting a "tech-support" sticky up at the top of the forum tier?

If someone is struggling with performance or stability issues, the mods can relocate the post to the appropriate discussion channel, not to suppress the topic, but to facilitate the troubleshooting process.

In its current form, all these negative vibes are worse for OFF than the complaints, at least, IMO, to a prospective customer.

Not everyone is as adventuresome as myself, and the prospect of getting mau-mau'd by the locals may well be more than this particular market can bear.
 
The only thing a fault finder finds..is faults!

Sorry Cliff..but people like you are never happy with what they have.

Good luck in your search forperfection...I am afraid you will spend most of your time frustrated and unhappy ...for it is like the fountain of youth.

It doesn't exist
 
Totally agree about putting a Techical Support or Post Your Bugs Here (sorry Olham :whistle:) thread as a sticky.
 
Davy TASB said:
Totally agree about putting a Techical Support or Post Your Bugs Here (sorry Olham :whistle:) thread as a sticky.
Click to expand...

I have purposefully not wanted to post here but on this one I will say:

We tried having a dedicated thread for issues in P2 and some members said we were trying to hide issues and were dominating freedom of speech - could never work out why this was perceived as so.

We wanted them all in one thread to make it easy for us to read and pick up on issues without them being sent back down the forum pages and into obscurity i.e lost/missed.

One member actually sent me an irate PM and left.
Oh and P2 was freeware with an option to donate - yeah lol :wiggle:.

Guys I will say this - there is no solution to this despite Olhams 'reasonable request' - Sim Nutters quite often are anal and will nit pick down to the rivet details (dont we all) and many will post triumphantly at finding them - its not hard lol.
There are reasons why there are not many commercial Combat Flight sim offerings....

I will also say we are totally committed to OFF now just as we were in P1.

Finally Technical support for P3 we have set up a dedicated e-mail support line:

support@overflandersfields.com

We also post in as many threads here as we can - but if I go back down the pages on SOH I see we have missed some - sorry trying our best - but if we have missed yours and you are still stuck - e-mail us as per above!

HTH

WM
 
Aye carumba, I've become a fan-boi. The shame.:faint:

I've been in Cliff's shoes too many times to not have at least a degree of sympathy for his point of view.

He advocates free speech. We are asking for restraint, to suit our own self-serving agenda. "Let's not put prospective purchasers off, lest it reduce the chances of more goodies and even a Phase-4."

What you all forget is that if the game really is that good any negatively-titled thread will be off the front page quicker than **** off a shovel and buried under the avalanche of positive threads. As has been the case here. The game doesn't need special treatment in that regard, because nature takes it's own course and regulates accordingly. If a game is crap the truth always outs. If a game is good the truth always outs. What I CAN say is that I have never seen a good game buried by false negatives, but I have seen crap games make more money that they should by false positives and the mis-guided trust of gullible gamers who trusted the false promises of deceitful developers and/or publishers.

Everyone has made their points in here regarding the original post (Olham's request), and then have gone on to expand, digress and otherwise meander into the field of personal acrimony. And now one member is getting the old gang-bang treatment. For posting HIS points. Then defending himself in a personal manner against comments made to him in a personal manner.

What it always comes down to, if you want a peaceful resolution, is to determine malice. Are people here expressing heartfelt points in their own style, personal or otherwise, or is there any genuine malice involved?

Trolling is malice, but there has been no trolling in this thread. Personal barbs can be malice, but they can also be the result of passion and involve no malice at all (as has been the case in this thread so far). But it doesn't take long for passion to evolve into malice. Is that where any of you want this to go?

Cliff's points are entirely valid, from his perspective. Everyone elses points are valid, from their perspective. They all fall within certain boundaries that set them as so. The issue is only that the perspectives don't match, not that any of them are defacto wrong. What IS wrong is that anyone fails to see that, believes theirs is right and the other's wrong and gets behind his own to the point he's prepared to get personal over it.

The term "agree to disagree" comes to mind.

Cliff, there are two potential bottlenecks with this game, GPU and CPU. My GPU bottleneck didn't exist with a GTX8800, it was my CPU. I bought a new one (the one you already happen to have) and OC'ed it to 4ghz. Coincidentally, right at that point, v1.2 was made available. Double-whammy, my game now flies with sliders on 54451. You compare OFF to those other games you mentioned, but you need to be aware of how many objects are being processed in this game...up to 300 a/c plus all the tanks, trucks, soldiers, barrages and a bunch of other stuff. That is a serious shed-load on the CPU, massively more than in any of those other games you mentioned. That's the cost of having a "Living Breathing World" TM. :)

All the GPU has to do is process what it can see on the monitor. Peanuts compared to what the CPU is having to do. Slight occasional stutters? There is not a game in existence that doesn't have those. So drop $50 and have a go old chap, if it doesn't work out what have you lost? $50? I don't know your circumstances of course, so that may or may not be a big deal to you. Your call of course. :)

Chaps, I may be wearing rose-tinted spectacles, but I honestly cannot remember a single fight back in the days of RB2-3D. It was a gentlemen's club, when PCs were akin to a Porsche in relative cost and the paddle-bashers were lucky to get a calculator for school. Pilots, doctors, teachers and similar professionals, and just hard-working chaps with money to spare on their hobby, all of an age that seemed to preclude unseemly behaviour. What what?! :)
 
Hello Winder, and Siggi,

good posts.

There are two extreme attitudes or so i see it. The fanboy, and the bashing one. Both extremes are nonsense, and do not really help us all in improving this sim. So if there is a real issue, it should be posted. But if anyone really want the devs to read about an issue you encountered you should post it in the stickies as Winder mentioned, so it will not vanish in all those other posts.

It is imho necessary to call a spade a spade, so i might place myself in no man's land - real issues have to be spoken about, and posted.
But it is YOUR decision how to phrase your concern - constructive or with blind thrashing. I do not think Cliff did the latter - anyone ? I have been in Cliff's shoes before, like Siggi ..

On the other hand it seemed the OFF team often took sim issues or legitimate critics personally, and some of this community even go at people who post problems, even before the dev team reacts to it in any way. Especially new members (maybe not flying at 100 percent difficulty and still learning thier stuff), feel like thrown amongst wolves here .. may i just say i do not think this is good for the sim, or its development either.

I certainly also dislike the "fanboy attitude", praising any software and disregarding any bugs that obviously show up. I also had a hard time back then in the days of OFF phase 1. It was me (not only) who produced several page-long posts with lists of what did not work, again and again, what should be altered, what i thought was wrong, or historically incorrect, and so forth.

Asking the dev team why things were as they were this resulted in reasonable answers like it is a sim in development, maybe in phase 2, not possible because of the CFS3 engine, and so on, but some answers were downright arrogant. I was not alone, there were some people that felt uneasy and left the forum and OFF, never to return. Not good for the sim again. The general behaviour from all sides has improved since then, or so i see it - just post like you were speaking to a real person, it may sometimes help ..

Greetings,
Catfish
 
God forbid it ever ends up like the IL2 forums!...I don't think my nerves could take it!!! :wiggle:
 
UK_Widowmaker said:
God forbid it ever ends up like the IL2 forums!...I don't think my nerves could take it!!! :wiggle:
Click to expand...

You got that right....like the fanboi beating one guy received with a Duke Nukem for "Never" comparison to the supposed BoB: Storm of War that's allegedly been in development for, what, 5 years and counting...and has yet to see the light of day...(and no, it wasn't me).
 
Somehow I'm having a wonderful time with OFF and find no serious fault with the dev team or the members of this forum. That's been true since the moment I enlisted here. Yet again my thanks to all. Thanks to Winder for saying your piece, I feel reassured. Fanboy, that's me, with no reason to put down anyone else or another game. My only trouble is in a personal vein as I want all the knowledge and peripherals to take this experience to that higher level that so many of you enjoy. I'll get there and many of you are helping me. :wiggle: That's me doing my simpleton dance. :wavey: Have fun guys.
 
cliff527 said:
Primarily, that of graphics performance. You look down at my system specs (sig line), consider that I've tried every tweak on this and other forums I can find, etc. etc. etc. I'm sorry, it just comes down to the simple fact: CFS3 was poorly behaved, graphically speaking, and OFF inherited (at least some of) that.

Now, in fairness, I don't own P3 (yet). I say yet, because I frankly decided to wait and see if it got any better in P3 before I paid for it

As it happens i agree with you ( and Siggi ) about objectivity and the right to say what is not liked about OFF ( or any other sim ), and,like Siggi, I think OFF3 is the best sim there is by far, though there are some things i would like to see different; but i would take you to task on your graphics opinion.-

and I think i have asked you this before, though you didn't answer, -

What flight sim do you reckon has got better graphics than OFF?
Surely, (you don't mind me calling you surely, do you ?:)), you go on what you see rather than what you think you should see, and your judgement must be made on a comparison basis as to what other flight sims are out there?
On that basis I think there are none better, particularly low down flying, which is why i have asked you to name the others which you consider to be better.?

Tell me someone has a machine that runs with *no* stutters (none, zero, notta) - not anywhere, not any time...and then let's look at how much money they threw at it to run that way...

I'll tell you - me !

I don't have stutters. At all.

I have tweaked CFS3 according to the websites ( found using google ),
I fly with all AV and firewalls off ( not online obviously ) ; I disable many unnecessary processes ( see blackVipers' site ) and i don't try to run with sliders at 5 - ( 53341 ).
I run new Quad I7 processor 2.93, mildy overclocked with mobo software to 3.06- that really gave extra FPS -nVidia 280 graphics card. on XP 32 bit.

Also - you do know that the higher the resolution you use, the faster CFS3 and OFF run, don't you.?- Contrary to the general rule.

So, Cliff - I agree with your sentiments re objectivity, but I cannot agree with you re OFF's graphics .

cheers
Click to expand...
 
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