Gentlemen, please - could we agree on this?

Again, with Rabu's post - it seems the message here is that, if you're praising OFF, do it loud, strong and (very) publicly...but if you're offering any criticism...

...well, that has to be "presented" properly. You can go on and on about how great it is, no problem. But, God forbid you find something that you feel isn't up to speed.

What you people are forgetting is that there's no rule that requires people to think like you do!!!

Here's an offer: I propose that no thread should be titled with any bias - good or bad. Plain and simple - and more importantly, neutral. Fair and reasonable.

So?
 
CLIFF,
I understand your point of view. I really do. Freedom of speech.
And off course you can write, whatever you want. Even in your headlines.
Unless you don't write stuff that is forbidden by Forum rules (not OFF rules), you can write, whatever you want.

My thread is just an appeal, not to write/shout "Bugged" all over the place, when it isn't even sure, whether it was a bug. Help is offered for problems (I think, it's "support@overflandersfields.com" ? If not, could someone send the right adress?) So, these people care for everyone having a problem with the game.

And if they were Microsoft, making millions with their works, I wouldn't give a damn. From such a big company, you could expect their new products to work better, than they often did.
Here though, we could take a bit more care - if we want. Just an appeal, a plea, a request - (don't know, which is the right word, as I'm native German). I hope, you understand me now, as good as I think to understand your post.
 
cliff527 said:
Again, with Rabu's post - it seems the message here is that, if you're praising OFF, do it loud, strong and (very) publicly...but if you're offering any criticism...

...well, that has to be "presented" properly. You can go on and on about how great it is, no problem. But, God forbid you find something that you feel isn't up to speed.

What you people are forgetting is that there's no rule that requires people to think like you do!!!

Here's an offer: I propose that no thread should be titled with any bias - good or bad. Plain and simple - and more importantly, neutral. Fair and reasonable.

So?
Click to expand...

Please reread, you're obviously missing the point.
 
Olham, I completely understand the intention of your post. However, as soon as a customer has to pay for a product, then all is fair in love and war as they say.

Also, to be honest, although i read posts whose titles convey how great OFF or any other game is for that matter, I also look for posts which talk about bugs or problems. If words like bug or problem weren't in the title, I wouldn't know about it. I'm not a millionaire and probably few of us are. Therefore, I like to be informed when I spend my money.

When you produce any product, and charge a price for it. Then you have to be ready for any and all types of criticism and praise.
 
Tell it like it is

Being up front is the only way to go.

it doesnt mean anyone is takeing shots at O.F.F.

but use a little tact in your heading, a heading like ''THE FLIGHT MODELS SUCK'' would be insensative [eg only] do not misread this.
Multiplay will always have issues as it does in cfs-3 so why not state that as a reality of the sim. it is very livable and playable but is a weakness of the game.
I dont think anyone should have to be told what heading to use but i would hope they are civil.
what one person writes can be seen in a different light by other's [as in rabu's case]
The original post by olham was well ment in that he would not like to see posts with a negative slant on the game as it may affect sales for the game. i think though that even those as being seen as negative are benificial. anyone who likes WW-1, after reading this forume would naturally want to give this sim a try as the majority of posts are full of praise and joy for the sim.
but be up front in your post and your heading.

PD
 
Cliffy old chap,

I don't s'pose it's occurred to you that this forum was probably put in place mostly in order to allow positive and constructive input and interaction from those of us that actually like the game?? (Also, please note the emphasis on the term "positive".) Not that there's no place for constructive (and when I say constructive, I mean constructive) criticism here. Any time I've seen that particular form of criticism put forth, it's always been pretty well received and put to good use by the developers. It's a valuable asset in terms of their being able to address some of the nagging little issues that are bound to occur within any software product, and I'm sure they wouldn't want to do without it.

The vast majority of us (or so it would seem) are extremely loyal and supportive of the developer's efforts to date. I for one, am extremely thankful for what their collective efforts have managed to produce so far, as well as for their unsurpassed level of support in terms of addressing people's issues or concerns. You won't see that level of committment to customer satisfaction too often, and it speaks volumes about the overall integrity and dedication of the team itself.

When I say "supportive of the developer's efforts to date", that's exactly what I mean. I get the feeling they have a reasonably strong intention of continuing support for, and continuing to develop and improve on what has become without a doubt, the finest WWI combat flightsim available to date. (And no, Cliffy....that's not cheerleading or kissing a$$....it's a simple and undeniable fact, wether you like it or not).

Now, if I found there was something seriously wrong with the product, or even mildy annoying for that matter, trust me, the developers would be the first to know. I would NOT however, troll a post in here with a title that was obviously negative or angry in nature within it's reference to the game. I would more than likely place my post in a thread that was specifically aimed at general concerns or troubleshooting. The forum is here in general I believe, to PROMOTE the game and encourage it's further development, not to dishearten and discourage those who have worked so hard to bring it to fruition. That is merely my humble opinion of course. Perhaps the forum is in fact here for those who like to engage in mindless and seemingly endless debates about who has the right to be critical of someone else's opinions and what the acceptable protocol for doing so should be. Perhaps it's here to allow a steady stream of insensitive and negative posts that will eventually annoy the developers to the point that they feel it's just not worth the aggravation anymore and pack it in completely. That should be real good for the flightsim community, particularly for those of us who like WWI stuff, huh?

Instead of arguing about the real or perceived injustices of someone using a positive, complimentary (or even negative for that matter) theme in their thread titles, wouldn't our energy be better spent on assisting and encouraging OBD to carry on with their efforts in the most positive way we can ??

Once again.....nobody here is suggesting people shouldn't provide negative feedback or point out something they think is lacking or can be improved upon. What I think we are suggesting is that it's done in a reasonably positve "tone". At least to the point where it's not hurting this forum's intended purpose, and as I said, in my humble opinion, that should be to promote and encourage both the support and development efforts of OBD Software, not just in general, but also with specific regard to the product the forum heading is named after??


Cheers,


Parky
 
Okay, I'll give it a last try, to explain, what I meant to say:

Title "Flight model sucks" is an opinion - so why not write it? It's okay, as everybody feels, it's just an opinion.
Title "Too much realism" is an opinion - so why not write it? (May even attract the realism-fans!)
Title "Planes look like crap" is an opinion - everyone can have a look for themselves, to find out, it's not true - or even post screenshots. So, why not write it?

But "Bugged" is a statement, a claim - that might quickly turn into a false assertion, when studied closer. So, maybe in post No. 4 of that thread, everything is cleared; might have been something due to the player's system. Everyone's happy again.
But "Bugged" would still stand as a headline in the Forum. And we can only edit the post's content - not the headline.
You might even want to withdraw it - but you can't anymore.

You would even be right to insist in writing it here, WHEN IT REALLY IS a bug. But as long as you're not absolutely sure about that - I would regard it as much more respectful to the dev team, not to write a headline like that.
Thank you for reading so far.
 
Yeah, but "BUGGED" what? Game? CPU? Overclock? All should become clear from the context within the post.

But if clarity is lacking maybe that's because neither the user or the developer is sure at that point. So "BUGGED" becomes a variable, a possibility. And a prospective purchaser has a right to be aware of that possibility. Then weigh it against all other comments elsewhere. It's called an "informed choice".

And if the prospective purchaser couldn't be arsed to get beyond a headline he probably wasn't much interested in the news anyway. Or just thick.
 
Maybe generally right, Siggi, but not here, I think.
I'm quite aware of the fact, that Pol or Winder are in here very often (You can see that at the bottom of the forum. Sometimes I wonder, if they ever sleep at all?), and that they react as immediately, as they anyhow can. Don't you agree there?
 
Olham54 said:
Maybe generally right, Siggi, but not here, I think.
I'm quite aware of the fact, that Pol or Winder are in here very often (You can see that at the bottom of the forum. Sometimes I wonder, if they ever sleep at all?), and that they react as immediately, as they anyhow can. Don't you agree there?
Click to expand...

I happen to agree with you, but not to the point that I would dictate or request with a back-up argument that others follow suit. You've suggested/requested it, and that's enough. Others must follow their own minds on the matter. I can see and appreciate both sides of the argument (somewhat unusual for me).

Personally I won't be putting "BUGGED" in anymore titles, based upon my own feelings towards the matter (that the sim is nigh-on perfect in most regards, and where it's not they are minor mostly subjective niggles).

It's a $50/£50 game, it doesn't automatically get some kind of kid's gloves consideration at that price-point, regardless of how much we may or may not revere the code/developers.
 
The thing is, most of the people hollering "BUG" are people who either didn't RTFI or they're trying to run BHaH on a machine that's barely capable of running vanilla CFS3, sort of like running a Yugo in the Daytona 500. Some don't know diddley squat about the inner workings of computers, and there are some who find it necessary to copy and paste files where they don't belong. I have run Phase 2 since mid '07 and all the while updating my machine so it would be capable of running BHaH Phase 3 upon it's release. Okay, so I've got a machine that's up to the task, the next order of business is READ THE FREAKIN' INSTRUCTIONS! I did that and instead of uninstalling CFS3 and Phase 2, like so many have done, the instructions told me that BHaH will install flawlessly right over Phase 2. I did that and it was absoultely flawless!! No problems whatsoever. I've been flying it for a couple of weeks now with no problems whatsoever!
Anyone with a lick of sense will try to find out what the problem is and either correct it themselves or ask for help. There is nothing to be gained by standing in the middle of the street screaming "the sky is falling" or yelling "FIRE" where there is none. It just causes undue controversy.
Personally, I don't care how you think Cliff. Obviously, by your statements you feel that everyone else should think like you do, which makes your argument moot in my book.

CJ
 
I see no one - not one of you - has chosen to answer my proposal: I propose that no thread should be titled with any bias - good or bad. Plain and simple - and more importantly, neutral. Fair and reasonable.

It's totally fair and equitable - no one gets any advantage that anyone else doesn't get.

Yet, curiosly, no one's answered.

That tells me all I need to know. You people don't want fair, equitable, objective or anything close.
 
Are we to have a flame-war over something so petty? A falling out? Regard our average age gentlemen. Let us try to mind our collective dignity.

As I will try to do the next time an occasionally inevitable 'PC EVENT' robs me of some time or kill/s or whatever. Passion, the arch enemy of composure.

We have a rather exclusive little club here, a product of the minds of a small number of very gifted and visionary developers, good fortune, right time and place and a not inconsiderable membership fee. Let's not spoil the decor with an unseemly food-fight. :icon_lol:
 
Alright Sig.....I'll put the mashed potatoes and gravy down, but I could have swore I answered that "proposal" as comprehensively as my obviously limited skills allow for. Evidently I'm nowhere near as articulate as I thought I was.....lol.

:ernae:
 
I think it's a bit like newspaper headlines.

The content may be less than the headline!!.....

I quite often choose to put a reasonably hard hitting title to my posts (not necessarily on this forum)...as it gets the post noticed, and people reading it!...Obviously I wouildn't choose something overboard like "OFF is utter crap" or the other end of the argument "OFF gave my wife an orgasm"........ But you get my drift?

Some people are more abrupt than others, and likewise some people are more reserved.

Yes, one does have more say when you have paid good money for something...you do have rights, and Winder and the team have been quick to offer people their money back if they have a real dislike.

But if you stood outside a record shop shouting "Girls aloud are all sl****" you would get moved on by the Police (as opposed to being given a reward, which I think you should recieve a fat wad of cash, for services to music!)...Go Figure!
 
Okay, CLIFF, I thought, I had given an answer in No. 27.
So, straight ahead now: no, I don't think much of your proposal. Let's carry on writing biased posts - positive and negative.
I'd just expect of you and everyone else, to show some responsibility, and some feeling for how far you may go.

Come on - join the show, you're welcome. Write something funny, or crazy, or whatever. Respect included.
Would that be okay for you?
 
cliff527 said:
I see no one - not one of you - has chosen to answer my proposal: I propose that no thread should be titled with any bias - good or bad. Plain and simple - and more importantly, neutral. Fair and reasonable.

It's totally fair and equitable - no one gets any advantage that anyone else doesn't get.

Yet, curiosly, no one's answered.

That tells me all I need to know. You people don't want fair, equitable, objective or anything close.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with constructive critical comment....but this (like Siggi says) is not about dummy throwing!

People have choices...and if their choice is to praise OFF to the sky..that is their right.
Equally, if someone wants to bitch about it, due to it's negativity..they should show restraint...that's just common or garden good manners
 
Personally I think all this arguing is over a moot point. The fact is there are no strongly negative threads out there, and that's because the sim has next to no significantly negative aspects. If it did people would be bitching about them, loud and clear.

What can tend to happen is people get used to all the good stuff and start finding themselves noticing the relatively tiny flaws. Human nature, give one chocolate, want the whole packet. Get the whole packet, doesn't taste so good anymore, want a different flavour.

But mostly with kids, the paddle-bashing arcade junkies. I believe the membership here is of an entirely different stamp, if only by virtue of the far greater ages. We're more aware of how the human condition works and have developed strategies to deal with it's more destructive and self-defeating foibles.

The game is a masterpiece, I think we're all generally in agreement on that. So let's just enjoy the crap out of it. :)
 
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