Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

[ryanbatc]

I'm a long time member here and am now a G2 user.

I did recently upgrade my video card to a rtx 4080 (prior had a 1080 Ti). I also use a 12700K cpu. So now I've got a high end PC.

Outside of big cities I can run 45-60 fps in VR with medium-high settings (I started using DLSS and it's okay - I just use the zoom in feature for glass cockpits). I can go higher but then it's not as smooth. I run 150 LOD in this area.
In large cities with payware I get about 25-35 depending on if I drop some settings to medium. I run 100 LOD in this area.

There is a discolored spot on my right lens so I'm a little bummed about that. I'm not certain if it came that way but I've noticed it for the last few weeks. It's small but noticeable against a brighter sky or area of the image.

This afternoon I had an extremely rare time to fly without kids needing me hehe - I shot a bunch of approaches in the Minneapolis area with the FSW C414. I also use dual TDS GTN 750Xi's because the touch screens are so much more effective when in VR. If flying in USA they also provide me with charts and metar (metar is worldwide as well) - so that pretty much takes care of all my flying needs. I have yet to fly VR online but am very excited. Anyway the flight today near MSP (I actually did IAPs at 21D, STP, SGS and FCM) was my best yet. I had about 35-40 fps at all times and it was in and out of snow and icing. I frequently inflated the boots because of ice buildup. To lookout at my left wing as see the "depth" in VR is incredible.

Downsides of VR are definitely still the clarity. In previous years I had tried an Occulus Rift at a friends' house using P3D and DCS. (DCS is the superior experience btw). The OR had the classic "screen door effect" and I didn't care for it. P3D wasn't very nice. DCS was a lot better but still not great. Today with my G2 and the 4080 I have the DCS F16 and AH64D Longbow. Both are phenomenal in VR! But about MSFS - I'd definitely consider a headset upgrade possibly to the Pimax Crystal at some point. Even at 100% render, the G2 is still a little low res... feels like 1080i at best. Unless you're looking right at a gauge, most gauges in the peripheral are somewhat fuzzy. Still the depth perception received from VR outweighs this issue IMO.

Here's a pic I took with my phone of the lens...it was from the first day of VR use and I was still learning. It's not quite this bad with the headset on but there is most definitely a lack of focus outside of a small focal point radius. The little ramper and the cone is sort of the focal point for context.

Oh, I also got my G2 for half off on Black Friday sale about 350 USD or so with tax.

Blah a lot of rambling! But with the old 1080 Ti it was acceptable with low settings. With the new 4080 I get about double the fps with double the settings - well worth it!

VR_FT_KBOS_sm by Ryan Butterworth, on Flickr

 

[Javis]

Jan, I can't answer any of your questions but for what it's worth: I have a Valve VR and I am very satisfied with it. I had it installed by a PC expert to get the best results.

Thank you, Hans. Do you use it all the time flying MSFS or do you still fly using your 2D monitor as well ?

 

[Javis]

Javis, your PC specs are pretty much the same as mine and I get silky smooth flying with a Quest 2 with most settings at mid or high and a couple on ultra.
I don't know what my FPS is as I haven't checked but its silky smooth with no stutters even low and slow over London in a helicopter which is a known FPS killer so I'm happy.
I'm not sure what the difference will be with a G2 though but you still should be able to tune it for good FPS I should think.

Thanks DB. That certainly sounds reassuring. The Quest 2 comes second behind the Reverb G2 on this 5 best VR headsets for MSFS list. I know now that the G2 comes without controllers. The Q2 comes *with* controllers. Do you actually use them while VR flying MSFS ?

Thanks !

 

[Javis]

I understand the remarks or advice to use nicely configurable joysticks with lots of buttons and axis and such...
That being said, I have flown in VR for 4 years with only my trusty MS Sidewinder FFB2 and that's all. Cockpit interactions were done with the mouse, just like I did on my 2D screen.

Thank you, Daube. 4 years ! Wow!! You must feel like one of the 'founding fathers' of VR flying !

So you must've flown FSX/P3D in VR too, right ? In humble 2D the difference between FSX/P3D and MSFS is totally overwhelming (IMHO..), in VR it must be even more astounding and 'out of this world', right ??.... Flying it with 'just' your MS Sidewinder and using a mouse to interact with the cockpit does sound wonderful !

I notice next to the relatively 'affordable' VR headsets like the G2 and Q2 there are some very expensive ones as well. Even up to 2000 euro's or more. May i ask which kind of VR headset you are flying with now ?...

Yes it's not the best. But it works and it works well enough, at first at least.
It is indeed difficult to reach some of the controls, yes, but that depends how complex your plane is, really.

I get that, sure. Well, my fav aircraft is and will always be the DC-3. Now i have my Honeycomb Bravo TQ with the DC-3 lever set and all i believe i'm all set to put that VR headset on. Certainly after your comment of 4 years with just your trusty Sidewinder.

Three months ago, I switched to a thrustmaster TCA Airbus set, which includes the joystick (with twist axis for the rudder), the throttles 1&2, the flaps, the airbrake, gear and a few other functions. It's nice and not too costly. I wish I had some rudder pedals for my helicopters, but for now it's good enough.

Yes, i have just the stick of this set but like with all other flightsticks i tried i just keep coming back to my old AV8R. Bought the Raptor Mach2 Hotas a while ago, the throttle is quite nice but i can't get used to the way the buttons on the stick are arranged.

Merci beaucoup, Daube, your comments makes me take the VR plunge with more confidence !

 

[K5083]

I know now that the G2 comes without controllers. The Q2 comes *with* controllers. Do you actually use them while VR flying MSFS ?

The G2 does come with controllers. Mine are still in the box, I never set them up. Can't see any use for them in the sim.

August

 

[Javis]

First of all I would say that 24 fps is very close to the minimum acceptable. With your rig, you must have all the settings on max to be getting a frame rate that slow.

Well i just put in that number as an example, August. Not sure what i'll get above NY atm. I am in the process of finally trying to get the most out of MSFS via a guide by Martin Bell. Very comprehensive so i'm only about half way. I have a lot maxxed out indeed but without certain things that are important. Already in the beginning of MSFS hints and tips appeared to disable certain things that would then double your fps.

On my unit, my frame rates range from 40 to 62 for most flying on a flat screen with a mix of high/ultra settings that satisfies me. They might drop to 30 or the high 20s in a combination of frame-sucking conditions like complex plane, complex scenery, complex weather.

Well, i think i can safely say that that's what i mostly experience as well. And i am fairly sure this will get even better once i'm finished with Martin Bell's guide. ( if you're interested you can find it here : https://exputer.com/guides/settings/best-microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-settings/ )

On VR, I haven't done an exact comparison at the same settings because I took the advice of the YouTubers and have most of my settings dialed to medium or high with some effects turned off entirely, and I find my frame rates generally are in the 30-35 range with occasional excursions down to 25 or up to 40. I find that frame rates are less variable in VR than in 2D for some reason, and there wasn't much difference whether I was beating up the Vegas strip looking at all the photogrammetry buildings or cruising over the empty desert.

Sounds pretty good to me, August ! Seeing not much difference between chasing cars along the Vegas strip and cruising the desert does sound remarkable. I gotta see that for myself !

As I said in post #1, I don't think low and slow scenery admiring is the best application for VR because a headset just doesn't render the crisp sharp saturated contrasty image that a good screen does, but if you think you might enjoy it, I wouldn't worry about the performance.

Thanks, August. There's still this insurmountable gap between us about you know what VR is all about and i don't... ;-) But as i said earlier, i read only positive comments about VR in MSFS and i believe i'm not the only flightsimmer that likes to view big cities from above so i think i'll take the chance just to see what it's all about. I am off the fence now and i'm not climbing on it again.

I wouldn't say fear of heights exactly, but how do you feel about amusement park rides and roller coasters? For me, that is the closest real-life feeling to what I've experienced with spirited flying in VR in the sim. Also do you easily get seasick/carsick/airsick? That results from a similar visual versus inner ear disagreement to what you get in VR. If you are willing to stick with VR, it might actually help you get over these things.

Bit of a misunderstanding here, August, but entirely my fault. I should've worded it better. It is not me that has vertigo i just wanted to extract an answer like " Oh yes! People with fear of heights should absolutely stay away from flying VR ! " Hehe..

The few times i've been on a roller coaster, loooong time ago, i absolutely loved it. Even bought that roller coaster game. Fantastic but only for a short while. Never been sea-, car-, or airsick neither. No, when it comes to that i'm quite alright.

Thanks again, August ! I think you can say "mission accomplished", atleast as far as i'm concerned.

 

[K5083]

Sounds like you're ready to take the plunge, Javis. I think you won't regret it, and look forward to hearing of your experience. I'm glad I started this thread. I tried to be fair, and there have been a lot of constructive responses.

August

 

[Javis]

The G2 does come with controllers. Mine are still in the box, I never set them up. Can't see any use for them in the sim.

August

Right, that's why the guy of the 5 best VR headsets listing finds the lack of these controllers with the G2 another pro. ( the G2 comes either *with* the controllers or without them. The difference is about 60 euro's. Currently the set *with* the controllers is unavailable at the store i'd like to buy it from)

So i guess i'm fine buying the G2 *without* the controllers. ;-)

 

[Javis]

Sounds like you're ready to take the plunge, Javis. I think you won't regret it, and look forward to hearing of your experience. I'm glad I started this thread. I tried to be fair, and there have been a lot of constructive responses.

Well, thanks again, August.

It is really true, you know, i *have* been sitting on that fence ever since VR became available for FS. But never really could get rid of visions in my mind of blurry scenery and gauges at sort of a slide show performance. Your elaborate post on the subject and certainly other comments i have been reading as well did make me think now just might be the time to give in and throw all demur and consideration overboard.

May still take a while but not because i am still hesitant about finally owning such a VR gadget, just a bit busy atm with other things.

But i'll certainly keep you posted ! As a matter of fact i can't wait !

Cheers,
Jan

 

[Daube]

Thank you, Daube. 4 years ! Wow!! You must feel like one of the 'founding fathers' of VR flying !

So you must've flown FSX/P3D in VR too, right ? In humble 2D the difference between FSX/P3D and MSFS is totally overwhelming (IMHO..), in VR it must be even more astounding and 'out of this world', right ??.... Flying it with 'just' your MS Sidewinder and using a mouse to interact with the cockpit does sound wonderful !

I notice next to the relatively 'affordable' VR headsets like the G2 and Q2 there are some very expensive ones as well. Even up to 2000 euro's or more. May i ask which kind of VR headset you are flying with now ?...

Indeed I started VR with P3Dv4, if I'm not mistaken.
However, I was only using it with photosceneries, such as FranceVFR, on which I could install some autogen (I hated photosceneries without autogen). I was rarely using it over "generic / landclass" sceneries such as OrbX PNW.
Later on, I switched to XPlane11 which was offering me greater visual details and performances than P3Dv4, and OrbX released the "TrueEarth" kind of sceneries which are very close to what we are getting now with MSFS, so this was definitely enjoyable.

About flying with only the mouse to control the avionics: for people like me that never had any specific hardware commands (nothing but a simple joystick), it's kind of easier because despite the "new" view in VR, the mouse quickly makes you feel "at home" in that new world.

For the VR headset, I'm using a Lenovo Explorer. This is the very first generation of WMR (Windows Mixed Reality) headset, that appeared on the market just after the Occulus Rift and the Vive (which effectively were the real "generation 1.0" of VR headsets for general consumers), so it's quite old. Resolution per eye was 1440x1440 pixels per eye (so 2880x1440 total resolution), but it's already a bit much for my old video card (GTX 1070-ti). I have to be very reasonable on the graphic settings in the sim.

I get that, sure. Well, my fav aircraft is and will always be the DC-3. Now i have my Honeycomb Bravo TQ with the DC-3 lever set and all i believe i'm all set to put that VR headset on. Certainly after your comment of 4 years with just your trusty Sidewinder.

One word on that: in VR you can't see your controls... but in reality, you know where there are, you don't really need to see them to reach them. For example, my mouse is on the table right next to my throttles, I can reach it easilly, even with the headset masking my view. Takes a few flights to really get used to it, but it's faster than you might think

Yes, i have just the stick of this set but like with all other flightsticks i tried i just keep coming back to my old AV8R. Bought the Raptor Mach2 Hotas a while ago, the throttle is quite nice but i can't get used to the way the buttons on the stick are arranged.

Merci beaucoup, Daube, your comments makes me take the VR plunge with more confidence !

I'm glad I could help a bit.

Just another note, concerning the controllers: I had controllers with my Lenovo, but I haven't used them yet.
Some sims like XPlane handles them nicely, but it's quite uncomfortable to grab and release them every time I want to grab the joystick or throttles or the mouse etc... Also, my controllers were not recognized correctly so I kind of gave up quickly. I'm not really missing them... In fact, I believe they still have their original batteries inside, which tells a lot... (life of batteries is very short in these controllers, usually )

 

[Stickshaker]

Jan, I only fly in VR. My monitor is set up to the right of my computer and I only use it for installing and launching software.

 

[K5083]

I do have one setup question for you other G2 guys. I am getting some clipping of cockpit frames and glass near my head in tight cockpits. I need to reduce the near clip plane distance on the headset. I definitely recall seeing a menu to do this among the many apps and menus required to set up this thing, but I've lost track of where it is. Does any of you know? I am using Windows Mixed Reality, OpenXR Tools, and the OpenXR Toolkit

August

 

[jmig]

Right, that's why the guy of the 5 best VR headsets listing finds the lack of these controllers with the G2 another pro. ( the G2 comes either *with* the controllers or without them. The difference is about 60 euro's. Currently the set *with* the controllers is unavailable at the store i'd like to buy it from)

So i guess i'm fine buying the G2 *without* the controllers. ;-)

Like Daube, I never use the controllers. They are only useful, in my opinion, for 1st person games.

 

[K5083]

Yes, if you are sure you'll only want to use VR for simming, and can save money, I'd get the without controller option.

Last month's $300 deal included the controllers, and it doesn't get cheaper than that at the moment, so I have them and who knows, maybe something will possess me someday to try Meta Horizons or VR Chat or something. I also considered maybe reselling them to someone who wants extras to make a full body rig, but I think I'll keep them for now.

August

 

[YoYo]

Like Daube, I never use the controllers. They are only useful, in my opinion, for 1st person games.

The same, I dont use it as well (just for settings of Open XR toolkit VR, I advise it! This is most important tool for me for VR na MSFS).

 

[Dangerous Beans]

I don't use the controllers either.
I did try them but found it uncomfortable having to hold my arm out in thin air instead of a real joystick taking the weight of my arm.

 

[Javis]

I'm a long time member here and am now a G2 user.

I did recently upgrade my video card to a rtx 4080 (prior had a 1080 Ti). I also use a 12700K cpu. So now I've got a high end PC.

Outside of big cities I can run 45-60 fps in VR with medium-high settings (I started using DLSS and it's okay - I just use the zoom in feature for glass cockpits). I can go higher but then it's not as smooth. I run 150 LOD in this area.
In large cities with payware I get about 25-35 depending on if I drop some settings to medium. I run 100 LOD in this area.

There is a discolored spot on my right lens so I'm a little bummed about that. I'm not certain if it came that way but I've noticed it for the last few weeks. It's small but noticeable against a brighter sky or area of the image.

This afternoon I had an extremely rare time to fly without kids needing me hehe - I shot a bunch of approaches in the Minneapolis area with the FSW C414. I also use dual TDS GTN 750Xi's because the touch screens are so much more effective when in VR. If flying in USA they also provide me with charts and metar (metar is worldwide as well) - so that pretty much takes care of all my flying needs. I have yet to fly VR online but am very excited. Anyway the flight today near MSP (I actually did IAPs at 21D, STP, SGS and FCM) was my best yet. I had about 35-40 fps at all times and it was in and out of snow and icing. I frequently inflated the boots because of ice buildup. To lookout at my left wing as see the "depth" in VR is incredible.

Downsides of VR are definitely still the clarity. In previous years I had tried an Occulus Rift at a friends' house using P3D and DCS. (DCS is the superior experience btw). The OR had the classic "screen door effect" and I didn't care for it. P3D wasn't very nice. DCS was a lot better but still not great. Today with my G2 and the 4080 I have the DCS F16 and AH64D Longbow. Both are phenomenal in VR! But about MSFS - I'd definitely consider a headset upgrade possibly to the Pimax Crystal at some point. Even at 100% render, the G2 is still a little low res... feels like 1080i at best. Unless you're looking right at a gauge, most gauges in the peripheral are somewhat fuzzy. Still the depth perception received from VR outweighs this issue IMO.

Here's a pic I took with my phone of the lens...it was from the first day of VR use and I was still learning. It's not quite this bad with the headset on but there is most definitely a lack of focus outside of a small focal point radius. The little ramper and the cone is sort of the focal point for context.

Oh, I also got my G2 for half off on Black Friday sale about 350 USD or so with tax.

Blah a lot of rambling! But with the old 1080 Ti it was acceptable with low settings. With the new 4080 I get about double the fps with double the settings - well worth it!

Thank you, Ryan, for your comment and the screenshot. That's pretty horrible but i do understand of course that this is 'VR without VR' i.e. missing all the 3D fun, right ? ;-)

So, you talk about lod a lot....hehe. So i understand that's pretty important flying MSFS in VR ? In my FS book LOD is something from way back then, can't even remember what exactly it stand for.( Ok, yes, Level of Detail ) Is LOD setting available in one of the MSFS menu's ? Do you change it with each VR flight depending on where you are going ?

One thing i won't have to worry about is glass cockpits simply because i hate 'em.. ;-) Strictly analog kinda guy here. DC-3, DC-6, Tiggie, Spit, you know, that kind of stuff. Would you say that there's deffinately a difference in performance between being inside a VR analog- or glass cockpit ? I wouldn't be surprised because they *are* very different, aren't they.

About the Pimax Crystal, that will leave a 1900 euro gap in my portemonnee... Wouldn't you say it's not a bad idea to start with something average (like the G2), not exactly top class, so you have a chance to appreciate something better later on ?

Thanks again for your comments, Ryan !

 

[Javis]

Indeed I started VR with P3Dv4, if I'm not mistaken.
However, I was only using it with photosceneries, such as FranceVFR, on which I could install some autogen (I hated photosceneries without autogen). I was rarely using it over "generic / landclass" sceneries such as OrbX PNW.
Later on, I switched to XPlane11 which was offering me greater visual details and performances than P3Dv4, and OrbX released the "TrueEarth" kind of sceneries which are very close to what we are getting now with MSFS, so this was definitely enjoyable.

About flying with only the mouse to control the avionics: for people like me that never had any specific hardware commands (nothing but a simple joystick), it's kind of easier because despite the "new" view in VR, the mouse quickly makes you feel "at home" in that new world.

Thanks for your explanation, Daube, very interesting ! Yes, the mouse in VR is something i am looking forward to to experience. I use my mouse a lot in my VC's. F.i. in the DC-3 even to control throttle,props and mixture. But that was *before* i got my Bravo TQ. ;-)

For the VR headset, I'm using a Lenovo Explorer. This is the very first generation of WMR (Windows Mixed Reality) headset, that appeared on the market just after the Occulus Rift and the Vive (which effectively were the real "generation 1.0" of VR headsets for general consumers), so it's quite old. Resolution per eye was 1440x1440 pixels per eye (so 2880x1440 total resolution), but it's already a bit much for my old video card (GTX 1070-ti). I have to be very reasonable on the graphic settings in the sim.

WMR, isn't that what i read about the Reverb G2 having been developed in cooperation with Microsoft and therefore another pro to go for the G2 ? I have read a bit about 'Windows Mixed Reality' and saw a short video about it. Not sure what to think about it, i might have 'Mixed Feelings' about it for the time being. ;-)

One word on that: in VR you can't see your controls... but in reality, you know where there are, you don't really need to see them to reach them. For example, my mouse is on the table right next to my throttles, I can reach it easilly, even with the headset masking my view. Takes a few flights to really get used to it, but it's faster than you might think

Sure, i am very confident that working with them without seeing them won't be a problem at all. Probabely it is the providence that made me decide to buy the Honeycomb Bravo TQ just a few weeks ago. Flying VR no doubt will prove i couldn't have made a better choice (the additional DC-3 quadrant levers particularly come in handy now !

Just another note, concerning the controllers: I had controllers with my Lenovo, but I haven't used them yet.
Some sims like XPlane handles them nicely, but it's quite uncomfortable to grab and release them every time I want to grab the joystick or throttles or the mouse etc... Also, my controllers were not recognized correctly so I kind of gave up quickly. I'm not really missing them... In fact, I believe they still have their original batteries inside, which tells a lot... (life of batteries is very short in these controllers, usually )

Probabely also providence, i can't even buy the G2 set *with* controllers.... Not in stock atm. Very happy to know now i won't need 'em !

Thanks again, Daube ! All very helpful !

 

[Javis]

Jan, I only fly in VR. My monitor is set up to the right of my computer and I only use it for installing and launching software.

Ok! So you have another system ( maybe laptop..) to do your 'regular' computer stuff ? I have only one computer/monitor for my 'regular stuff' plus flying, racing, eurotrucking, training, transporting fever, etc, usw.
I'd like to see how far i can get setting VR up myself, if the result will prove unsatifactory i'll ask an expert. Thanks for the advice, Hans !

Like Daube, I never use the controllers. They are only useful, in my opinion, for 1st person games.

We *can* use a Gamepad/Gamecontroller in VR as well. can we ?.... Not much of 1st person gamer myself, don't care for all that blood and gore and certainly not in 3D ! ( i suppose.. ;-) I used to be big fan of the 'Myst' franchise. I wouldn't mind playing some of the editions again in 3D if that'll prove possible. I have a Xbox gamecontroller so i don't need such VR controllers, right ?

The same, I dont use it as well (just for settings of Open XR toolkit VR, I advise it! This is most important tool for me for VR na MSFS).

Does this Open XR Toolkit come with a VR Headset or do you just get it from the internet ?

Thanks!

I don't use the controllers either.
I did try them but found it uncomfortable having to hold my arm out in thin air instead of a real joystick taking the weight of my arm.

Yes. sure ! In VR demo videos i always think that it looks pretty awkward and uncomfortable to see people holding these controllers in front of them with stretched arms, waving about in the air. And certainly when the're standing straight up. If this would be how we would have to fly our precious flightsims i would never even give VR a second thought.

Thanks again all ! Very much appreciated as always

 

[YoYo]

Does this Open XR Toolkit come with a VR Headset or do you just get it from the internet ?

Thanks!

For me, this is a mandatory tool (especially for WMR users of HP Reverb, OpenXR is a native environment for WMR so for Reverb as well).

Check this:
https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/

btw. you can find many info/tutorials on YT about it.

I use it and cant imagine fly without in in MSFS and in VR mode. For me most important things:
1/ a little better performance (or you can set up even better but the cost is a quality)
2/ sharpen option (very important for me, the picture in VR and MSFS is a little blurry still, this tool helps for this)
3/ you can use your own pallete of colurs.

My settings:















You can find the big topic about it on MSFS official forum too (VR corner).