Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

[Stickshaker]

Yes, Jan, I have a computer (my old sim computer) for normal computer activities and a dedicated one for simming. It took some time, of course, to heva my simming computer get so old that I could promote it to regular computer but now I am very satisfied with it. My normal work is primarily word processing, so I don't need a very fast computer for that.

 

[K5083]

Today I thought I would do the same short hop in a Cherokee in P3D in VR, MSFS in VR, and MSFS with TrackiR, to really get a feel for which I enjoyed more. I used high quality planes, the A2A Cherokee 180 in P3D and the Just Flight Warrior in MSFS.

The P3D flight was very enjoyable. Cockpits in P3D VR look just as good or better than in MSFS VR. The scenery was cartoony of course, although Orbx Global winter textures actually are quite nice, but crisp and smooth with few artifiacts. It occurs to me that there is a reason why the most popular VR apps, like Meta and VR Chat and the most popular games, are cartoony also. Photorealism and VR aren't quite comfortable together yet, and VR can give you an immersive experience even without photorealistic rendering, as millions of Meta users (OK, thousands. Uh, hundreds?) have learned.

The MSFS VR flight had all the immersion going but nothing was truly sharp, the colors were muddy, there were loads of artifacts especially when looking through the prop arc, and some of the controls just could not be operated. Also, I never got to finish it because my GPU threw an error and crashed the sim before I could land. This is a finding in itself, of course. Weighing whether to do a flight in MSFS VR has to take into account the lower probability of making it to your destination without a CTD. I tried to diagnose the error using the AMD Adrenaline GPU software, but its special page for MSFS just lied about what frame rate it was getting (claiming >90!) and tried to gaslight me about every other aspect of its performance. I felt like if Donald Trump got somehow converted to a piece of software, Max Headroom style, he's be the AMD GPU utility.

After restart (and no, I never want SAFE MODE, thank you), the MSFS TrackIR flight also was a pleasure, much better looking, smoother, and easier in every way except that 2D view is hard to accept after any VR experience, I must admit.

Now for the big news, for the return leg after the last TriackIR flight, I decided to find out whether TrackIR and VR can be used in the same flight without interfering with each other. Popping out of VR during a flight to turn dials and stuff is all very well, but it's a lot better if you can look around the cockpit naturally and even take in the view for a while. Turns out they can coexist, and I think it might be the best of both worlds. You can start in TrackIR, fiddle with all the switches and things at startup, then when ready to taxi you hit active pause, pause TrackIR so the LEDs on its camera turn red, swap the TrackIR cap for the headset, and hit the VR button. I did not have any crashes while doing this, and having TrackIR running at the same time as VR did not seem to affect frame rates. I switched back and forth en route several times in order to compare the experiences and torture test the procedure. I think this may be my usual way of flying with VR in the future.

August

 

[ryanbatc]

Thank you, Ryan, for your comment and the screenshot. That's pretty horrible but i do understand of course that this is 'VR without VR' i.e. missing all the 3D fun, right ? ;-)

So, you talk about lod a lot....hehe. So i understand that's pretty important flying MSFS in VR ? In my FS book LOD is something from way back then, can't even remember what exactly it stand for.( Ok, yes, Level of Detail ) Is LOD setting available in one of the MSFS menu's ? Do you change it with each VR flight depending on where you are going ?

One thing i won't have to worry about is glass cockpits simply because i hate 'em.. ;-) Strictly analog kinda guy here. DC-3, DC-6, Tiggie, Spit, you know, that kind of stuff. Would you say that there's deffinately a difference in performance between being inside a VR analog- or glass cockpit ? I wouldn't be surprised because they *are* very different, aren't they.

About the Pimax Crystal, that will leave a 1900 euro gap in my portemonnee... Wouldn't you say it's not a bad idea to start with something average (like the G2), not exactly top class, so you have a chance to appreciate something better later on ?

Thanks again for your comments, Ryan !

Yeah the screenshot I posted was via my mobile and I was trying to hold it steady. There is a little motion blur from me not doing that haha. So the image I see when the headset is a bit sharper than that. LOD is exactly what you wrote...it's the radius from your aircraft to where objects load. In VR the clarity isn't as good as 2d monitor so I just run 100. In 2D big cities I run 200 or 300 in farmland/rural areas. Some people run higher LOD in VR but 100 seems to work for me.

I like a mix of glass and analog. My favorite is the FSW C414 with dual TDS GTNxi's. Also I enjoy the Carenado PC12 now that they fixed some of the bugs. They're both weather capable and fairly fast general aviation addons. The Milviz C310 is also great in VR! Speaking of all glass, like the G1000 NXi or the new G3000/5000 or GNS530/430 from WT... there is a weird 3d effect on the map pages...almost like the background on the map is behind the text on the screen. I'm not sure why that is. But it doesn't bother me - and looks like it wouldn't be factor for you at all I don't really observe a performance difference between the two. For instance the PMDG 737-700 is very friendly on fps, but I've heard the Fenix A320 is not. I don't fly many airliners though, mostly GA.

I'd say the G2 is what you should start with. But I haven't read the entire thread.... What are your current system specs?

 

[Javis]

For me, this is a mandatory tool (especially for WMR users of HP Reverb, OpenXR is a native environment for WMR so for Reverb as well).

Check this:
https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/

Thanks very much, YoYo !

Still looking down into the 3D abyss, hovering my foot over the edge, shall i jump or not.....Scary !

Once i'm sitting here wearing that funny hat i'll be all over this. Thanks again !

 

[Javis]

Yes, Jan, I have a computer (my old sim computer) for normal computer activities and a dedicated one for simming.

Ah, Ok ! That's the way to do it.

It took some time, of course, to heva my simming computer get so old that I could promote it to regular computer but now I am very satisfied with it. My normal work is primarily word processing, so I don't need a very fast computer for that.

Somehow i knew your normal work is mainly word processing. ;-) I used to be a welcome customer at the local bookstore buying just about all monthly aviation magazines. But that's all water under the bridge for a long time already. The bookstore is now a shusi bar.... I did feel sorry for the owner. I wouldn't even know if there's a dutch aviation magazine left, Hans. Is there ?...

 

[Stickshaker]

Yes, Jan, it's called 'Piloot & Vlíegtuig'('Pilot & Airplane') I used to have a flightsim column in it but now I only have a column about 'big' aviation.

 

[Javis]

Today I thought I would do the same short hop in a Cherokee in P3D in VR, MSFS in VR, and MSFS with TrackiR, to really get a feel for which I enjoyed more. I used high quality planes, the A2A Cherokee 180 in P3D and the Just Flight Warrior in MSFS.

Well, your VR flight didn't exactly come through with flying colors, August...

Must say makes me waver a bit again. It really comes down to immersion and '2D view is hard to accept after any VR experience'. I'd better concentrate on that.

I only just once tried TrackiR over at a friend (no, he never got a chance to go VR, sadly he died only 53 years of age. Still miss him very much. He would've LOVED MSFS..) and i truly hated it and so never got it myself. Of course i was aware that you need to get used to it, get comfortable with it ( no doubt exactly the same with VR, right ? ). The almost constant movement of the VC in front of me with every tiny head movement put me off completely. I just thought i don't need that, i am very comfortable with my hat switch. Mileage may vary, right ? ;-)

In any case, thank you very much for your VR/TrackiR comparison report, August. Very interesting !

 

[Javis]

Yes, Jan, it's called 'Piloot & Vlíegtuig' (Pilot & Airplane) I used to have a flightsim column in it but now I only have a column about 'big' aviation.

Ahh, good ol' "Piloot & Vliegtuig". Great to hear it's still there ! I have about a one meter high pile of it along with piles of Avia, Cockpit and another dutch aviation mag of which its name fails me atm, and lots of English/American aviation magazines (fav as always Aeroplane Monthly). All came to an end once internet was introduced. Sad but true.

Did have big fun creating a database of all photos and information of aircraft i found interesting in all these magazines. Saved it to floppy disks so that's how long ago that was. Still enjoyed it a lot ! ;-)

Good for you that you still write articles, Hans, be it 'only' for real aviation.

 

[YoYo]

Good to know that you enjoy it .

The truth is that once someone tries VR and likes it, they never want to go back to flat 2D. This completely changes the simulation and feelings and.... ok its not cheap at the beginning... but you dont need any home cockpit (just good HOTAS, few switches, maybe one panel, thas all). You have virtual cockpits so you don't have to spend a lot of money to build a real home cockpit, you are just in it, in a completely 3D environment. Of course, the graphics are still not perfect and not as good as 2D (according me next 2 generations of GPU and headset and it will be), but it's a compromise. Here you feel that you are floating, and you are not sitting on a stool in the child's room .

​

remember that you have many 3D presentation, take for example this about Apollo mission HD https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/9072/Apollo_11_VR__Apollo_11_VR_HD/ (I always show it when someone comes to me and never used VR headset).
This is free, nice presentation too https://store.steampowered.com/app/512270/Home__A_VR_Spacewalk/ and Lancaster mission (maybe not good quality but nice still https://store.steampowered.com/app/513490/1943_Berlin_Blitz/.

 

[Javis]

Yeah the screenshot I posted was via my mobile and I was trying to hold it steady. There is a little motion blur from me not doing that haha. So the image I see when the headset is a bit sharper than that.

Sure, i get that. I think all in all i have a good understanding now what to, more or less, expect once i have setup my VR headset. I just need to finally get behind that '3D experience', been looking forward for it for years but always just sitting on the fence. And i must say i am still a bit reluctant to hit that 'Buy' button. ;-)

LOD is exactly what you wrote...it's the radius from your aircraft to where objects load. In VR the clarity isn't as good as 2d monitor so I just run 100. In 2D big cities I run 200 or 300 in farmland/rural areas. Some people run higher LOD in VR but 100 seems to work for me.

Thanks Ryan, seems a good figure to start with. Do you remember when for the first time you put on that VR headset and what your first thoughts were ?...

I like a mix of glass and analog. My favorite is the FSW C414 with dual TDS GTNxi's. Also I enjoy the Carenado PC12 now that they fixed some of the bugs. They're both weather capable and fairly fast general aviation addons. The Milviz C310 is also great in VR! Speaking of all glass, like the G1000 NXi or the new G3000/5000 or GNS530/430 from WT... there is a weird 3d effect on the map pages...almost like the background on the map is behind the text on the screen. I'm not sure why that is. But it doesn't bother me - and looks like it wouldn't be factor for you at all I don't really observe a performance difference between the two. For instance the PMDG 737-700 is very friendly on fps, but I've heard the Fenix A320 is not. I don't fly many airliners though, mostly GA.

Isn't it like you have a PPL, Ryan ? You fly GA for real ? I'm asking because then i can fully understand your enthusiasm for glass cockpits/Garmin stuff. No doubt in the real world of aviation glass cockpits are the next best thing since sliced bread. Numberless times i have tried to get into it. Enjoyed the PMDG 737 in FSX/P3D a lot (not bought it yet for MSFS..). But once you've sat in the left seat of *real* DC-3, DC-4, DC-6, Connie ( mind you, just sitting, not flying..;-) i couldn't care less about these little blue screens with all these tiny data exposed on them ( sure, absolutely, they have 'em in still flying species of these old Ladies now too, otherwise grounded and all, but i can't help that ;-)

Turning needles, the more the better, that's my kind of flying fun. Nothing more exiting when at last you'll notice a slight tremble of the CDI needle, atm 'parked' at the right side of the OBI, whilst flying thru the murk, nothing to see. You've been waiting for that anxiously while fuel tank needles slowly but steadily moving to the 'empty' sign... It's alive ! Gonna make it afterall. We're getting outta here !

I'd say the G2 is what you should start with. But I haven't read the entire thread.... What are your current system specs?

My system specs are : i9 9900K, RTX 2080Ti, Asus RogStrix Z390-F, DDR4 64GB, W10, Dell 32" Curved, 2560X1440, MSFS Silky Smooth. Must say still tweaking to get the best out of MSFS via a guide by Martin Bell. Overall i still think the performance gain we get with MSFS compared to FSX/P3D is absolutely insane. Finally really looks like i'm flying ! ( and that's even in 2D only sofar... ;-)

 

[Javis]

remember that you have many 3D presentation, take for example this about Apollo mission HD https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/9072/Apollo_11_VR__Apollo_11_VR_HD/ (I always show it when someone comes to me and never used VR headset).
This is free, nice presentation too https://store.steampowered.com/app/512270/Home__A_VR_Spacewalk/ and Lancaster mission (maybe not good quality but nice still https://store.steampowered.com/app/513490/1943_Berlin_Blitz/.

Thanks YoYo !

I *do* understand that with all these VR demo's you *do* need a VR Headset, right ?....

(haven't got it yet, like you say, it's a really big step... ;-)

 

[YoYo]

For sure!

 

[Dangerous Beans]

Javis, seeing as your also a race and truck simmer VR will blow your socks off.
All the main modern race sims support it and suddenly you will get a totally different perspective on thing like road camber and elevation changes.
I think in a very short time you will see your lap time start to drop.

Also both Euro and American truck sim work great with VR. They do need a little bit of setting up though Steam before it works but its pretty simple to do and there's instruction in the discussion pages on Steam on how to do it.
I haven't flown in a couple of weeks because I've spent most of the holidays trucking in VR.

 

[Javis]

Javis, seeing as your also a race and truck simmer VR will blow your socks off.

Right! Sounds good to me, DD. Thanks! Don't need 'em anyway.. ;-)

All the main modern race sims support it and suddenly you will get a totally different perspective on thing like road camber and elevation changes.
I think in a very short time you will see your lap time start to drop.

I can certainly relate to that. I'm sure it will deffinately reinstate my enthusiasm for race sims as well. Certainly since MSFS it has been going down hill so to speak even despite the utter beauty of Project Cars and Assetto Corsa, just like my Euro- and American trucker status. Everything gets boring at a certain time of heavy involvement. Even happend with flightsims but then i got my trusty Gmax/3dsMax to help me get back in the flying seat. I used to love trainsims very much but i guess that's deffinately something of the past ( or VR must come to the rescue here as well,,,,?) The only game still standing proudly and strong at the top for many years already: Transport Fever 2.

The true beauty of that is that if you get bored you just start a new map from the wagonloads of maps or scenarios from the workshop. Another piece of beauty is the 'ride along' feature that you won't find in any other city building game. Driving along thru the scenery that *you* have created (for a certain part anyway) in a train cab or horse and cart, a bus, tram, a truck or even along with a citizen in his/her car is kind of magic. And if you want to *fly* over your meticulously created scenery you can do that too. In the mean time taking in the history of transport from the 1850's up to now in its broadets sense. Ok, over and over again of course but somehow i never get bored about the history of transport. ;-)

Also both Euro and American truck sim work great with VR. They do need a little bit of setting up though Steam before it works but its pretty simple to do and there's instruction in the discussion pages on Steam on how to do it

. Thanks again, DD, certainly good to know and i will certainly have a look at that once VR starts rolling here ( i do think i'll start with flying though...;-)

I haven't flown in a couple of weeks because I've spent most of the holidays trucking in VR.

Can imagine! I used to love it too ! Garages full of beautiful all pimped up trucks. Particularly loved the 'Open Pipe' sounds. Hear them sometimes for real (dunno in the UK/US but here in Holland Open Pipes for trucks are not allowed..) and i always have to smile in myself and think of Euro/American Trucker.. https://youtu.be/7nS4GmAR_ow

What i would be particularly looking for in Euro/American Trucker in VR is to give me that good, realistic feeling of driving such a big monster because, IMHO, that's what really is missing and the main reason for me to get bored with it eventually. (same thing with Trainsims riding in the cab, it's all so smooth, no waving or shaking about on the suspension like would be the case in the real thing. Only one man who got that covered beautifully, Mr. Mackoy with his unsurpassed freeware 'BVE' ( 'Boso View Express' ! ;-)

With the graphics cleaned-up to modern standard *THAT* would really be something to look forward to in VR !

Rambling on, better sign off now. Thanks again DD !

 

[Javis]

For sure!

Tres bien. That's what i thought. Hehe

 

[Stickshaker]

I used to fly ultralights and flew (with a pilot on my side) several planes (the P-51 Mustang twice) and for me the closest thing to real flying is with VR. Are there 'real' pilots reading this thread who van compare real flying with VR?

 

[YoYo]

I used to fly ultralights and flew (with a pilot on my side) several planes (the P-51 Mustang twice) and for me the closest thing to real flying is with VR. Are there 'real' pilots reading this thread who van compare real flying with VR?

At my place, real military fighters pilots (of MiG-29, Su-22) tested DCS for example. Yes, behavior (feeling) like in real life, I also flew and piloted planes myself (An-2, CTSW, Extra 300L). Anyway, Today, VR is already a standard technology in the training of pilots in many countires, including military ones.

 

[Javis]

@ August:

Dear August,

Before finally hitting that buy button there's one other thing i'd like to know more about. It concerns this comment you made in your original post : "If you want to enjoy MSFS's wonderful scenery, you might be better off going back to the monitor. There's no stereo 3D effect in VR of anything that far away"

Truth is that i love MSFS mostly because of its amazing scenery and nothing gives me more pleasure than exploring it usually flying relatively low and slow. What i wanted to ask you is what can you say about the 'stereo 3D effect' in this particular 2D example video. It's a good example of what i would call 'flying low and slow' and if this 'stereo 3D effect' would really be missing here because it is actually too far away i am not sure if i really should push that buy button for the Reverb G2.

I very much understand that a cockpit, aka VC, will look amazing in 3D, just because everything is as up close to the camera as can be but i'd certainly expect to see the same kind of depth in the scenery below me ( flying that relatively low of course). I can also understand that looking ahead the sense of 3D will deminish.

What do you say, August, would the scene here in this video example still produce that stereo 3D effect while wearing the Reverb G2 eventhough the scenery is more or less 'far away' ?

Another example if i may. This is also relatively Low but certainly not Slow ! It's a video of the Machynlleth Loop (Mach Loop) in Wales UK in an F-15. A great challenge, very exiting and fun to do (even in 2D ! ;-) Same question here, August, what about that 'stereo 3D effect' here thru a Reverb G2 ? Will there be anything left as far as the scenery is concerned or will it look more or less the same like in this (2D) video ? (did you by any chance try it with the your G2 ?... Would love to hear your comment ! )

(is there by any chance anyone else that flies the Mach Loop in VR ??.... ( Hans...?? (if afirm comment please, thanks !

I guess what my inquiry here is all about is : when you say "There's no stereo 3D effect in VR of anything that far away", can you be more specific about "far away" ?

Thanks very much for your reply !

 

[Daube]

About the Mach Loop... I haven't flown it yet, however I have made quite a few "low & fast" flights, both in that F-15 or in other jets, and it doesn't matter which details are visible or not. At that speed, you'll definitely get some different perception of the scenery (much better, in my opinion) than anything you would get from a 2D screen.
To be honest, that video does not impress me much, visually. In the cockpit in VR however, that would be a totally different story.

Concerning the video about the highres cities: the thing is that *distant* objects/scenery will be a bit blurry in the VR headset. Probably less blurry in a G2 than in my old Explorer, sure, but still more blurry than on a 2D high resolution screen. Still, the VR will offer you a nice perception of the height and distances, that you absolutely don't get in 2D. So yes, you will perceive/see less small details, but what you will perceive will be perceived "better" than on a 2D screen.

Typically, low&slow flights over cities or hills or mountains or forests etc.... will be much more enjoyable than anything you'll ever feel on a 2D screen.
Of course, I'm missing a few details of the scenery or an airport. But these details I can still see when I land there (or when I fly close to it enough ).
VFR / bush flights are a blast in VR.
Military jets are also a blast, no matter if it's high or low altitude. The MachLoop is going to Machloop your stomach for sure

 

[Dangerous Beans]

I've flown the Mach loop a lot in MSFS in VR and the depth perception is there in spades. I use the loop for my go to flight in all sorts of planes from low speed civies to balls to the wall mil jets and its a total blast in VR.

I don't get Augusts comment about no stereo effect, I see it at pretty much any distance.