Should I Switch to VR? August Answers Your Questions!

[Daube]

I'm not sure either about what he meant, but I just imagine it might be about the the perception of objects perspective...
Like, when you look at an object that is very close to you, you can really "feel" the difference between what your right and left eyes are seeing. Any small movement of your head translates into major changes to the "picture" that is perceived by each eye. That is probably the "stereo 3D effect" he was talking about.

And he is right: such an effect is only "very noticeable" on objects that are very close from you.
If you are hovering in an helicopter just a few meters above the roof of a building, you will get a strong perception of the difference of distance between that roof and the actual ground level around the building.
But, if you are flying at 2000 feet and look down at that same building, it will be like the roof and the ground are on the same level, more or less.
It gets worse in VR and the distance, as things become blurry, so you get even less chances to perceive differences of distances / perspectives.
To translate it simply: it becomes much less impressive.

However, this is only about the very small details. You still get the perception of distances and heights, especially when you fly above mountains or such.

 

[Javis]

Thank you very much Daube and DB !

I am just protecting myself against dissapointment. Hehe..

Like i said earlier the only experience i have with stereo 3D image is that View Master of about half a century ago. Still have it and although the picture itself is rather small i totally love the 3D effect, always have. Though there are 3D pictures of cockpits as well most are external views of aircraft flying fairly high above the landscape and the 3D effect aka depth perception is absolutely awesome.

I know i would be pretty dissapointed if such a depth perception would be anything less thru my brand new Reverb G2 than what i see in my vintage View Master. (to be honest i expect to be blown away.. ;-)

Love your comment " that video doesn't impress me much", Daube. I absolutely love it (not as much as i fly it myself of course) because of the smoothness and high framerate the sense of speed is something i have never seen before in any of the MSFS predecessors. So if i understand your comment right i *will* be blown out of my ejection seat once i fly the Mach Loop with my G2 !

But, if you are flying at 2000 feet and look down at that same building, it will be like the roof and the ground are on the same level, more or less.

Ok, i think i know what you mean. The Jodel from the first video excerpt flies at about 1000/1500 ft over Napels, right ? Must say, when the sequence begins, with the port wing visible, i already have sort of a 3D feeling on my 2D monitor, probabely because of the shadows and light at that particular moment. IMHO truly awesome already !

Flying at 1000/1500 ft would you say in VR the depth perception would be even more enhanched compared to what we see in the video ?

In any case, gentlemen, you have convinced me to finally hit that buy button and go for it. Napels from 1000/1500 feet and Mach Loop here i come in 3D !

Thank you once again, guys !

 

[Stickshaker]

I think the issue here is: is the VR effect realistic? As far as I know human depth perception is only very partly determined by the stereo effect. We seem to mostly judge distance bu size (sometimes relative to other objects), angular velocity, level of detail, shadows, texture and so on. So I doubt whether the stereo effect makes much difference in practice. When flying my ultralight, I only was aware of the stereo effect while landing. Even on downwind leg I judged my position relative to known objects like the runway, only judging distances (altitude for flaring) during the last phase of finals.

 

[Tom Clayton]

I don't do VR, but if you're looking for something that should give you that kind of depth perception, spawn at KGCN and depart due North. Stay low to the ground, and after a couple of minutes, that ground will drop out from under you as you head over the Grand Canyon. Drop in, find the Colorado River, and follow that as low as you can until you get to Lake Meade. The fastest thing I could ever get through that back in FS9 was either the FS8 Corsair ported over or one of Dave's Lightnings.

 

[Daube]

Love your comment " that video doesn't impress me much", Daube. I absolutely love it (not as much as i fly it myself of course) because of the smoothness and high framerate the sense of speed is something i have never seen before in any of the MSFS predecessors. So if i understand your comment right i *will* be blown out of my ejection seat once i fly the Mach Loop with my G2 !

Yes, you understood it properly
The sense of speed you get in VR has nothing in common with anything you see on a "regular" video or 2D screen.
You will sense it *more*, and *better*. The stereo picture is one reason for that. The other reason is that you will finally look at the scenery (and your cockpit) with a 1:1 scale. Not like most of the videos we see where everything is too small, too zoomed out... and anyways displayed on a "tiny" screen...

And just wait until you start a flight in an helicopter. That will be the ultimate proof. I mean, I used to be able to pilot helicopters (not good at hovering, but good enough for a flight) on my 2D screen. But once I flew the same helicopter in VR.... I mean, I can't even explain it properly. You'll see that by yourself
To a lesser extend, the same goes for open cockpits aircrafts. Something like the Jenny or the Waco for example, becomes a completely new experience, due to the depth perception.

Ok, i think i know what you mean. The Jodel from the first video excerpt flies at about 1000/1500 ft over Napels, right ? Must say, when the sequence begins, with the port wing visible, i already have sort of a 3D feeling on my 2D monitor, probabely because of the shadows and light at that particular moment. IMHO truly awesome already !

Flying at 1000/1500 ft would you say in VR the depth perception would be even more enhanched compared to what we see in the video ?

Yes, the depth perception will be enhanced. As it would be in reality.
When you will be looking at your wing in the DR400, with the city in the background, you will perceive the fact that the wing is just here, while the buildings are down over there. You (your brain) will "feel" it.

That example that Tom just gave above is also very good.
I remember a similar experience when I was guiding a friend through his very first VR flight. We took off from Chambery airport in France. There's a mountain on the east, with a kind of 'plateau' (flat area) on top. We flew up there by following the uphill, while keeping very low altitude (like, 300 feet above ground, to enjoy the details of the trees and roads). Then we reached the plateau. All was nice, until we reached the "border" (ridge?) of the plateau, where the ground would suddenly drop by several hundred feet to reveal the full valley with the lake and the airport we started from... I still remember my friend shouting in the microphone (it was a tone very similar to the "holly sh*t" by Rooster in TopGun, when he is sitting in the Tomcat ).

 

[Javis]

I think the issue here is: is the VR effect realistic? As far as I know human depth perception is only very partly determined by the stereo effect. We seem to mostly judge distance bu size (sometimes relative to other objects), angular velocity, level of detail, shadows, texture and so on. So I doubt whether the stereo effect makes much difference in practice. When flying my ultralight, I only was aware of the stereo effect while landing. Even on downwind leg I judged my position relative to known objects like the runway, only judging distances (altitude for flaring) during the last phase of finals.

When you say 'flying my ultralight' you mean the real thing, right ?..

Maybe the 'trouble' here is that we can't compare our normal real '3D life' to what a 'real 2D life' would look like ? I can imagine it would be a total disaster !

I think the beauty of artificial 'stereo 3D perception' might stem from the fact that we are so immensily used to 2D 'flat' pictures, movies, TV and such next to our 'normal real 3D life'. Nothing more common and normal then sitting in front of a (2D) monitor for hours or having seen a (2D) movie in a theatre and then happily 'return' to our 'normal real 3D life'. No problem at all. Does that make sense ?... Hehe

There must've been an occasion where i had to watch out for a ladder not to hit me in the head ( i worked as a windowcleaner for while..;-). Normal practise, no problem, forgotten about it the next day or even earlier. Funny thing is that i still remember that same occasion about half a century ago but this time it was artificial stereo 3D ! It was a demo stereo 3D broadcast on TV where you'd need such a '3D glasses' ( red and green IIRC) to view it. The scene was a fire department demonstration where a big almost horizontal situated ladder would be turned towards the camera and then extended *towards* the camera. Everybody in the room i watched this 3D demo broadcast with, including myself, desperately ducked as fast as possible as not to be hit by that ladder !

Certainly is one of the reasons i kept on being interested in 'artificial stereo 3D perception' and now, finally, have ordered my first VR head set. ( funny enough i never felt the urge to go and watch a 3D movie like Avatar...)

Am still amazed by that little 3D View Master as well, but that might also be for nostalgia reasons ;-) ( did you ever see those aviation disks in a View Master, Hans ? )

 

[Stickshaker]

I was indeed referring to my 'real' ultralight, Jan. Unfortunately I never saw aviation films in 3D.
Your post makes excellent sense. I wonder whether in real life you avoided ladders by combining the cues I mentioned or by 3D vision. Window cleaning on a ladder must have been more thrilling than simulated flight!

 

[Javis]

I don't do VR, but if you're looking for something that should give you that kind of depth perception, spawn at KGCN and depart due North. Stay low to the ground, and after a couple of minutes, that ground will drop out from under you as you head over the Grand Canyon. Drop in, find the Colorado River, and follow that as low as you can until you get to Lake Meade. The fastest thing I could ever get through that back in FS9 was either the FS8 Corsair ported over or one of Dave's Lightnings.

Way ahead of you there, Captain. I used to 'fly the Colorado river' too only from the other side. Take off from Boulder City, head for the Hoover dam and fly the river southwards. Magic ! Even in 2D.

But i will certainly try your route, thanks !

My Reverb G2 just arrived !

 

[Daube]

Good luck in getting it installed and configured properly.
Keep us informed in case you need help.

 

[Javis]

Yes, you understood it properly
The sense of speed you get in VR has nothing in common with anything you see on a "regular" video or 2D screen.
You will sense it *more*, and *better*. The stereo picture is one reason for that. The other reason is that you will finally look at the scenery (and your cockpit) with a 1:1 scale. Not like most of the videos we see where everything is too small, too zoomed out... and anyways displayed on a "tiny" screen...

And just wait until you start a flight in an helicopter. That will be the ultimate proof. I mean, I used to be able to pilot helicopters (not good at hovering, but good enough for a flight) on my 2D screen. But once I flew the same helicopter in VR.... I mean, I can't even explain it properly. You'll see that by yourself
To a lesser extend, the same goes for open cockpits aircrafts. Something like the Jenny or the Waco for example, becomes a completely new experience, due to the depth perception.

Thanks Daube, all understood perfectly ! Open cockpit biplanes certainly belong to my fav aircraft to fly in FS. It's true, i really can't wait to experience that in VR ! ( won't take long anymore, just got my Reverb G2 here on my desk ! Already impressed about how light it is and how nice it feels on my head.. ;-)

Yes, the depth perception will be enhanced. As it would be in reality.
When you will be looking at your wing in the DR400, with the city in the background, you will perceive the fact that the wing is just here, while the buildings are down over there. You (your brain) will "feel" it.

Ohh, i can imagine it will be difficult to choose what and where to fly first ! Boy oh Boy!! Finally my '3D dream' come true, actually i still can't believe it !

That example that Tom just gave above is also very good.
I remember a similar experience when I was guiding a friend through his very first VR flight. We took off from Chambery airport in France. There's a mountain on the east, with a kind of 'plateau' (flat area) on top. We flew up there by following the uphill, while keeping very low altitude (like, 300 feet above ground, to enjoy the details of the trees and roads). Then we reached the plateau. All was nice, until we reached the "border" (ridge?) of the plateau, where the ground would suddenly drop by several hundred feet to reveal the full valley with the lake and the airport we started from... I still remember my friend shouting in the microphone (it was a tone very similar to the "holly sh*t" by Rooster in TopGun, when he is sitting in the Tomcat ).

Haha, i can imagine !

Yes, i have been flying the Colorado river frequently in FSX/P3D. Even in 2D absolutely amazing. I can't even begin to think how it will be in VR ! It's a bit late now, this evening i'm going to get myself familiar with setting the G2 up for MSFS. Already noticed plenty of stuff to see about that on the Tube.

Wish me luck, Daube, and thank you very much again for helping me decide to finally go VR !

 

[Daube]

I'm looking forward to your feedback.
Please keep in mind, you will NEED to lower some graphic settings. And you won't really care, because the details you will loose are the ones you couldn't really see well in a VR headset anyways.
But if you expect the sim to run as well in VR as in 2D with the exact same settings, you are going to be disappointed. Just expect to have to lower a few things. Not much, but a few important ones.
For example, at least for your first tries, you might want to set the cloud quality back to "high" instead of "ultra", because that one eats FPS quite a lot.
Also, don't be scared about lowering the objects and terrain LOD settings.
Don't hesitate to lower a bit the "render scale" (NOT the world scale!!). The G2 has quite a high resolution. If you lower it a bit, it will still be "high enough"

 

[Stickshaker]

Jan, I only fly with VR. I also have a special seat and a motion platform, and my monitor is set to my right-hand side. I use it only for starting sims etc.

 

[Javis]

M.I.R.A.C.U.L.O.U.S.L.Y A.W.S.O.M.E. !.!.!.!.!


Well, all you VR people probabely say what else is new.... ;-))

Truly incredible guys, and that's only looking around the Windows Mixed Reality environment. Holy Moly !!!

No, not started MSFS yet, want to first see the video again how to properly setup MSFS for VR. I am just over the moon that my Reverb G2 seems to be working perfectly. Just not sure yet if i need my glasses or not. Tried the G2 both with and without glasses but can't really see much difference. These are glasses i only use for my computer monitor (about 1 meter away from my eyes), i have another pair of glasses just for reading (a book etc) and yet another for driving my car. I think i'll try those as well.

Also noticed that nothing has changed regarding normal 2D computer procedures : Holotour crashed during tour selection....Bummer.. And is it correct that, without the controllers ( i *did* buy the set *with* controllers just in case) i can't do anything in the Halo demo world ??.... Don't really care for that game but i like to see the demo anyway. ( i set up the G2 to only sit at my desk and NOT use the controllers ).

One thing i miss : my dog... Usually lying beside me when i am at my computer. When i pet him and virtually look down beside me he's not there... ;-)

Ok, i am aware that an incredibly exiting VR flying world lies ahead of me now and i want to thank you guys so much again for showing me the 3D way !

And a special thanks to August who started all this. Thank you very much, August, as far as i'm concernd starting this thread has been your idea of the year !!

 

[Daube]

Hehe, nice to see you progressing carefully

Another thing to keep in mind, it's very important, during at least the first few sessions:
- Don't move your head fast. Try to keep your head movements as slow as possible. Think of yourself as a child that is riding in a car for the first times of his life. You will get a bit sick. You WILL get used to it, and your sessions will get longer, but AT FIRST, please go sowly. In fact, I would strongly advise you to avoid helicopter until you get more comfortable with your VR headset.
- Please try to keep your VR sessions short (10 or 20 minutes). Take your time to stop VR and breathe, give your eyes/brain,internal ears time to rest
- Also, keep in mind that low FPS makes all of that WORSE. We all want to increase the graphic details, but in VR everything is twice as expensive as it is in 2D. So be double-careful with these settings, and keep your sim as fluid as possible !

 

[Javis]

Hehe, nice to see you progressing carefully

Another thing to keep in mind, it's very important, during at least the first few sessions:
- Don't move your head fast. Try to keep your head movements as slow as possible. Think of yourself as a child that is riding in a car for the first times of his life. You will get a bit sick. You WILL get used to it, and your sessions will get longer, but AT FIRST, please go sowly. In fact, I would strongly advise you to avoid helicopter until you get more comfortable with your VR headset.
- Please try to keep your VR sessions short (10 or 20 minutes). Take your time to stop VR and breathe, give your eyes/brain,internal ears time to rest
- Also, keep in mind that low FPS makes all of that WORSE. We all want to increase the graphic details, but in VR everything is twice as expensive as it is in 2D. So be double-careful with these settings, and keep your sim as fluid as possible !

Thanks Daube !

Getting a bit used to 'walking around' in this amazing VR environment now, i mean the WMR 'showroom'. Still investigating, so much to see. Wow!!

But in the mean time trying to get MSFS going in VR. No luck sofar.... From the many video tuts i understand i need to install OpenXR to make the MSFS connection. So that's what i did and now have this : " Windows Mixed Reality OpenXR runtime is installed and active" . It is also set to ON in the settings menu. In the MSFS General Options menu i have assigned bindings for Activate/Deactivate VR Mode and VR Toolbar Toggle. However VR Camera Reset remains greyed-out. When i click "Switch to VR" i get a Missing Binding warning [VR-Camera Reset is required to play VR] with a knob to "Assign Binding" which then takes me to Control Options.... ??

I have the impression that MSFS is not aware that there's actually a VR headset connected... (the HP logo light on the headset is on)

Any idea what i am missing or doing wrong here, Daube ? How do *You* connect your VR headset to MSFS ??...

Thanks very much for any hint or tip !

 

[Daube]

This is strange, my VR headset is always connected to the computer, and when I activate the VR mode in MSFS (with CTRL+TAB, default assignment if I'm not mistaken), it automatically triggers the Windows Mixed Reality Portal application, which switches the headset ON, and I get the picture in the headset after a few seconds.
I also had to install OpenXR runtimes, and I also installed the OpenXR Development Tools from Microsoft, which has this purple icon with transparent background in my start menu,
That application has three tabstrips, the last one is "Mixed Reality" and it tells me if the OpenXR runtime is active or not. If not, it offers me a button to "define OpenXR runtime as active runtime" or something like that. Just a click and its done.

Just in case, did you check in your MS Store application if all your applications were up to date ? (Library-> "get updates" button)

 

[Javis]

Thanks Daube ! But please disregard because I AM IN !!!! I AM A PILOT !!!! HOLY MOLY !!!!

You know, earlier i have asked MSFS VR users what it felt like when they flew in VR for the first time. Now i know about that myself !!.... You know what, i almost cried.....

For my first VR flight ever i took one of my ultimate fav planes, the Tiger Moth. Thought to keep it simple too and flew from EHAM Schiphol to my house following the river Zaan, about a 10 minutes flight. Never thought about that before of course but my brand new Reverb G2 headset felt immidiately like i was wearing goggles ! Because that's what you'd wear flying a real Tiggie, right ? I can honestly say that it enhanced the immersion even more because of that. You'd be called mildly insane when you fly a Tiggie in MSFS wearing goggles (although i can imagine their must be a few individuals who do just that...hehe) but wearing a VR headset is perfectly ligitimate, isn't it. ;-)

Well, Daube, i shall have to buy another keyboard because i simply cannot find the words to describe what i felt during my frist VR flight. It is true, right ? There are no words to describe it. Maybe the closest would indeed be "once you've flown in VR you'll never go back to MSFS on your 2D monitor". Even with my first VR flight i know now that MSFS in 2D has no meaning. Can i say that ???

Also when i said " I am over the moon" with my first VR experience inside the Windows Mixed Reality environment i can now say that " I am over Mars or even Pluto" with my first VR experience flying in MSFS !

Like i said earlier, i thought the main problem i could not get my headset to work in MSFS is the fact that the 'VR-Camera Reset' option was grey-ed out, i.e. there would be a squared Question Mark in place of the key binding. Some help turned up once i clicked "Activate VR" with the same warning message and a button to click that said 'Assign Binding'. Totally worthless because it takes you to the Control Options which doesn't have a 'VR-Camera Reset' entry...

I might have seen the light when i finally did a search for 'VR-Camera Reset'.... I then got one that wasn't grey-ed out so finally i could assign a key-combination. Et voila !!! A rudimentairy stereo image on my monitor ! I quickly put my G2 on my head and was lucky to have myself strapped in already otherwise i would've fallen out again right away... WOW!!!! I'M SITTING IN A COCKPIT !!!! HOLY MOLY INDEED!!!

Well, the rest is history. VR history !! Hehe... Have to mention one downside... The fact that you have the stick, throttle and mixture levers so close by and right in front of you and so extremely life like but still are not able to grab them is nothing short of a Tantalus Torture !! But i am sure willing to live with that inconvenience !! ;-)

I'm leaving all these truckloads of various settings and stuff from the Youtube MSFS/VR tutorial videos for later, my first VR flight looked and performed like a dream but that was probabely because it really was a dream come true !! After a bit more experience i'll go and see about those settings tuts again. I know what's it all about now. that's important.

Thank you again and again Daube, August and everybody else who participated here in this MSFS Virtual Reality extravaganza ! I can't tell you how happy i am having participated too and that it made me a REAL PILOT finally because that's what it truly feels like !!! ;-)))

THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN

 

[Daube]

I AM IN !!!! I AM A PILOT !!!! HOLY MOLY !!!! :[/SIZE][/COLOR]

Ah excellent !! Glad you could solve the problem finally. Welcome to the "new" sim world

You know, earlier i have asked MSFS VR users what it felt like when they flew in VR for the first time. Now i know about that myself !!.... You know what, i almost cried.....

I completely know what you mean. It was pretty similar for me when my brother let me put a VR headset on my face for the first time !

For my first VR flight ever i took one of my ultimate fav planes, the Tiger Moth. Thought to keep it simple too and flew from EHAM Schiphol to my house following the river Zaan, about a 10 minutes flight. Never thought about that before of course but my brand new Reverb G2 headset felt immidiately like i was wearing goggles ! Because that's what you'd wear flying a real Tiggie, right ? I can honestly say that it enhanced the immersion even more because of that. You'd be called mildly insane when you fly a Tiggie in MSFS wearing goggles (although i can imagine their must be a few individuals who do just that...hehe) but wearing a VR headset is perfectly ligitimate, isn't it. ;-)

The Moth ? That was a perfect choice indeed. Simple enough so you don't have to fight with the plane controls/buttons at first, and great view point in VR !
I see what you mean about the googles, and I confess I never thought about it before. It actually makes a lot of sense...
About being insane... well, no matter what, we DO look insane when wearing these VR googles in front of our computers anyways, so we're just being consistent here, aren't we

Well, Daube, i shall have to buy another keyboard because i simply cannot find the words to describe what i felt during my frist VR flight. It is true, right ?

Yes, that is absolutely correct.
We just can't describe that to anybody who hasn't tried VR yet. It's not possible.

There are no words to describe it. Maybe the closest would indeed be "once you've flown in VR you'll never go back to MSFS on your 2D monitor". Even with my first VR flight i know now that MSFS in 2D has no meaning. Can i say that ???

You can say it, although with time you will find occasions where the VR headset is best "temporarily removed" to really enjoy the flight. For example, when setting up an FMC/MCDU in a modern airliner. It can be done in VR, yes, but sometimes you just want to do it in 2D, because it's easier. But it's just a matter of personal preferences, really

Thank you again and again Daube, August and everybody else who participated here in this MSFS Virtual Reality extravaganza ! I can't tell you how happy i am having participated too and that it made me a REAL PILOT finally because that's what it truly feels like !!!

THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN

I'm really glad to see how much pleasure you could get from that first experience. I was worried you would face problem such as performance/FPS hits etc... but it seems everything went much better than expected, and that's really great.
Now fire these jet engines and go Mach-looping the hell of that valley

 

[jmig]

Thanks Daube ! But please disregard because I AM IN !!!! I AM A PILOT !!!! HOLY MOLY !!!! ...


...THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN

It was a pleasure to read about your unbridled enthusiasm. May it inspire others to try VR flying.

 

[Javis]

It was a pleasure to read about your unbridled enthusiasm. May it inspire others to try VR flying.

I truly hope so, John. It's a big step but Boy oh Boy am i happy i have taken it !!