To the silent majority

Then again...

ViperPilot2 said:
Steve,

There are many times when I have thought of learning how to repaint aircraft, or create scenery. What has discouraged me every time is the lack of a 'glossary' explaining basic terms like 'layers', 'alpha channel', or with Scenery, terms like 'flatten', 'exclude', etc.

Please note that this is my personal opinion, no one else's... here goes:

I tend to get the impression that, once one gets past the preliminaries (what software to use, what other programs one needs), that all of the 'important' informational steps one needs to proceed with become 'Secrets of the State'; details that no one is willing to impart with under fear of exile, ostracism, apathy, or something to that effect.

The 'standard' answer to these inquiries invariably ends up as being on the lines of "Well, you've got to learn sometime, so just jump in and go for it", or "Well, if you can't get it, then Repainting (or Scenery Design) is just not for you... sorry".

Quite demoralizing, especially when searching for an answer to a basic issue, and the post languishes for days in the Forum without a reply, or even any views of the post. Or, after days of hard work your 'new' repaint is uploaded, and all of the Comments end up being of the 'Did you finger paint that one" or 'you're missing x in the Texture' without offering a solution to correct the mistake.

So, I just keep using what I have for FS 9. Searching the File Libraries, making do with what's out there, and continuing to have fun as best I can.

A two way, friendly and informational stream is what's needed to keep the FS 9 fires burning.

Yes, we need more creators, compilers and designers in the fold. At the same time, more experienced creators might want to try and pass on what they've learned in an informative way; tutorials, glossaries... anything that would help the novice proceed.

I'm not trying to rub anyone the wrong way, insult or complain. I'm just sharing personal observations that I have noticed in my 'short' time using FlightSim and as part of the many FS Forums out there.

View attachment 91580
Click to expand...

I am a very good graphics artist, sim enthusiast and have carloads of tricks, tips, and tutorials... I have offered and hardly anyone has bothered to ask for my help....
I have a sort of tutorial "ad" offering "capable artwork" help in learning how to do cockpits... FOR MONTHS... and no one has bothered to even ask about it...
(I have a running thread on 2D cockpit artwork design - over 8,000 visits and only an occasional show of interest in learning) so... not everyone fits your stereotype... lol
However... yes YOU ARE RIGHT... often times I see those answers.. "jump in... etc."
Hell, trial and error is the slowest form of human learning... and if one can benefit from the experience of others... it saves time and aggravation at continued failure with
with some particular issue... when someone who has solved that problem can make it as easy as 1-2-3.. for you...
I find it so easy to learn when someone who has felt those things and solved the problem can give me a hand... As far as tutorials...
I prefer to teach through human contact than "impersonal" tutorials that oftentimes address the tutor's needs but not necessarily what a "special someone" with "special"
learning quests is looking for...

I guess I can try this post as an approach with something like this:

DO YOU WANT TO PRODUCE WORK LIKE THIS? I CAN TEACH YOU HOW... FREE OF CHARGE!!!

JUST SEND ME A PM...
 
Wrong reference!

Bjoern said:
Nice 328-140, although I think that the USAF would never, ever operate one.

An X-55 though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Composite_Cargo_Aircraft
Click to expand...

Check you facts... Wikipedia... under C-146... not the experimental model... X-55....
A base out in Florida uses it in support of covert operations... without the markings... just plain white...
And when the aircraft was first accepted into the inventory... it did have USAF markings...
Check out the facts with the USAF... I am a retired Army field grade officer and ALWAYS check my stuff
before I say anything about anything....
 
Furthermore...

Bjoern said:
Nice 328-140, although I think that the USAF would never, ever operate one.

An X-55 though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Composite_Cargo_Aircraft
Click to expand...

Such categorical statements as you made on the Dornier bird... are not only misleading to those who know no better... but
are somewhat insulting to people who have their ducks in order... There has been quite a brouhaha over this type of
interventions... they can create discord... and misunderstandings...
Remember the old adage... "before you shoot from the hip... engage brain... and close might tight so as not to stick foot in it"
To wit,
 
gaucho_59 said:
Check you facts... Wikipedia... under C-146... not the experimental model... X-55....
A base out in Florida uses it in support of covert operations... without the markings... just plain white...
And when the aircraft was first accepted into the inventory... it did have USAF markings...
Check out the facts with the USAF... I am a retired Army field grade officer and ALWAYS check my stuff
before I say anything about anything....
Click to expand...

And here I thought I've seen all of the 328s out there...sorry 'bout that.

Makes sense to use a 328 for spec ops stuff. Fast, STOL capable and cheap to acquire.


I do spot one inaccuracy though: The door configuration is the one on the starboard side and not on the port side.



Such categorical statements as you made on the Dornier bird... are not only misleading to those who know no better... but
are somewhat insulting to people who have their ducks in order... There has been quite a brouhaha over this type of
interventions... they can create discord... and misunderstandings...
Remember the old adage... "before you shoot from the hip... engage brain... and close might tight so as not to stick foot in it"
To wit,
Click to expand...

Geez, I'm sorry.
 
likewise sundog, some of my earliest profiles can be found there under the name AGNT_Matt... i broke off from there and went solo... now my profile art is my business...
 
I appreciate all the replies, offers and suggestions regarding my initial post on this topic. You all obviously have an understanding WAY above what little I know.

I find the more I try and read up on the subject, the more confused I get; mainly on understanding what appear to be basic terms. For example...

What is an Alpha Channel? What are Layers? What do I choose... DXT1 or DXT3? What Layer goes on top of what? (I know what you're thinking... jeez, this is Repainting 001 stuff; what's so hard about it?)

The Tutorials for Paint.net, GIMP, etc. that I have read already assume one has a good grasp of the fundamentals and the terms used.

I'm thinking someone needs to write a Repainting for Stupid Idiots and Rank Amateurs (read: ME), because to me, it's like trying to translate a cuneiform tablet!

Sorry if I sound like a rank noob; it just so happens that... well, I am.

:isadizzy:
 
Hi V and H,
What we have here is a Mexican stand-off, you don't know which question to ask and therefore we can't give an answer. You want help and we are more than willing, but IF asked specific questions. The problem is that painting or building with any prog is a huge thing to describe, and one that not many people would want to do, TBH that's the bottom line. As said on previous posts, there are lot of tutorials out there, and combined with asking specific questions here and the net about names or terms, you can gather the know-how.

The rhetorical question I would ask you is, how did we all learn to use the programmes, paint and build etc.....? We're not all post-grad art students or professional CAD designers.

As you say you need tutorials rather than asking the odd question here, that would be more helpful to you. Gaucho has offered to take you through as much or as little as you want. Why not just start a post with him on the subject? That way all of those people who haven't asked or would like to know can be part of it. And others can pitch in.

The other way, I'm sorry to say, is all out there....YouTube has some excellent video tutorials on all those subjects and with all the paint progs you mentioned. In fact looking at one of them on PSP, I've just learnt something!! ha ha!

Cheers

Shessi
 
Shessi said:
Hi V and H,

What we have here is a Mexican stand-off, you don't know which question to ask and therefore we can't give an answer. You want help and we are more than willing, but IF asked specific questions. The problem is that painting or building with any prog is a huge thing to describe, and one that not many people would want to do, TBH that's the bottom line. As said on previous posts, there are lot of tutorials out there, and combined with asking specific questions here and the net about names or terms, you can gather the know-how.

The rhetorical question I would ask you is, how did we all learn to use the programmes, paint and build etc.....? We're not all post-grad art students or professional CAD designers.

As you say you need tutorials rather than asking the odd question here, that would be more helpful to you. Gaucho has offered to take you through as much or as little as you want. Why not just start a post with him on the subject? That way all of those people who haven't asked or would like to know can be part of it. And others can pitch in.

The other way, I'm sorry to say, is all out there....YouTube has some excellent video tutorials on all those subjects and with all the paint progs you mentioned. In fact looking at one of them on PSP, I've just learnt something!! ha ha!

Cheers

Shessi
Click to expand...

Well actually, I thought I did ask some basic questions in my previous post...

"What is an Alpha Channel? What are Layers? What do I choose... DXT1 or DXT3? What Layer goes on top of what? (I know what you're thinking... jeez, this is Repainting 001 stuff; what's so hard about it?)"

And, on the topic of Tutorials... gaucho and RobH started a great one in "The Paint Shop: Skinning Your Game":

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforu...ith-texture-files-in-CFS2-and-FS9-for-newbies

Quoting from the Tutorial:

"The texture file is now saved as a bmp file and should be easily opened by your paint program. Now you can paint your new texture. (I hope to write up a tutorial on that part in the near future, if you need help painting). Be sure to save your paint first in the format that will save your work with the layers intact, such as a PSD, PSP, or whatever other paint programs save in. Next, you will save your paint as a bmp file. Once again, make sure you are saving your paints in a new, separate folder away from your aircraft's main folder. You will now open your new .bmp with DXTbmp. At this point you may need to add a alpha channel to your texture.

Now to touch on Alpha channels briefly. In CFS2, alphas are used to create invisible parts on the plane, and in FS9 they are used to add shine. Once again, I will touch more on the alphas in a later tutorial. This tutorial is just to help you with handling the files. If your texture requires a alpha, now is the time to add it. In dxtbmp, click on alpha, then either import the new alpha channel for FS9, or as in CFS2, create alpha channel, and you will choose either black or green. Again, I will get more into that later."


The Tutorial was dated December, 2010. The Thread went off on a tangent having to do with Contact Points, and was never finished...

So, gaucho... may I ask for some assistance, if you would?

Thanks!

Alan :redface:
 
Touche'

Bjoern said:
And here I thought I've seen all of the 328s out there...sorry 'bout that.

Makes sense to use a 328 for spec ops stuff. Fast, STOL capable and cheap to acquire.


I do spot one inaccuracy though: The door configuration is the one on the starboard side and not on the port side.





Geez, I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

You are very perspicacious! You are indeed right! I figured right away what happened... I do my profiles always from
a side view with the nose to the viewers left... For accuracy on the contours... I start with a base layer which is the
template for all the work... I started with a view that I reversed... never thinking for a second that I was transposing
right for left so to speak... in other words... the whole thing is wrong now.... need to redo most of it ... but might get
away with just using a 3-view line drawing and correct the errors... good thing I had not made plans to publish it anywhere...
except here as an example of the painting quality under discussion...
Very good point for me... for now I will pay more attention to such details... Good thing I never painted a C-47 starting with
an opposite view... where there are NO doors at all......
Thanks for the tip...
 
Most assuredly....

ViperPilot2 said:
Well actually, I thought I did ask some basic questions in my previous post...

"What is an Alpha Channel? What are Layers? What do I choose... DXT1 or DXT3? What Layer goes on top of what? (I know what you're thinking... jeez, this is Repainting 001 stuff; what's so hard about it?)"

And, on the topic of Tutorials... gaucho and RobH started a great one in "The Paint Shop: Skinning Your Game":

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforu...ith-texture-files-in-CFS2-and-FS9-for-newbies

Quoting from the Tutorial:

"The texture file is now saved as a bmp file and should be easily opened by your paint program. Now you can paint your new texture. (I hope to write up a tutorial on that part in the near future, if you need help painting). Be sure to save your paint first in the format that will save your work with the layers intact, such as a PSD, PSP, or whatever other paint programs save in. Next, you will save your paint as a bmp file. Once again, make sure you are saving your paints in a new, separate folder away from your aircraft's main folder. You will now open your new .bmp with DXTbmp. At this point you may need to add a alpha channel to your texture.

Now to touch on Alpha channels briefly. In CFS2, alphas are used to create invisible parts on the plane, and in FS9 they are used to add shine. Once again, I will touch more on the alphas in a later tutorial. This tutorial is just to help you with handling the files. If your texture requires a alpha, now is the time to add it. In dxtbmp, click on alpha, then either import the new alpha channel for FS9, or as in CFS2, create alpha channel, and you will choose either black or green. Again, I will get more into that later."


The Tutorial was dated December, 2010. The Thread went off on a tangent having to do with Contact Points, and was never finished...

So, gaucho... may I ask for some assistance, if you would?

Thanks!

Alan :redface:
Click to expand...

Of course... now I understand your point about a sort of aborted explanation... obviously some of us are excellent experts in our own mind... but fail to carry through with our explanations...:wiggle:
:isadizzy:
I am not sure as to what your question really is... At any rate, an alpha channel is an algorithm that.... well I sincerely don't think you want to go there...
Suffice it to say that what it DOES is more important than WHAT IT IS... for your purposes...
You are indeed right.. the above explanation is one for the guy who already knows what it is...
I think that one should start at the beginning... by ASKING YOU some questions... (and this is where it can become a long-winded discourse...and why I think that trough e-mails or PMs your questions can be best adddessed...
rather than on this forum... Maybe the one mentioned above (painting for newbies) would be a better venue... The questions I was aiming for were:
What painting program do you use... (if you are NOT using a fairly sophisticated program like PSP or Photoshop... you probably don't need to worry about alpha algorithms because lesser programs might not even permit you
to manipulate such variables)
Nonetheless... I think that a personal one-on-one approach is better.. you are not bored by long winded explanations that DO NOT provide the answer you were looking for... etc.
The second question... IS YOUR QUESTION CLEAR IN YOUR MIND AND HAVE YOU ARTICULATED IT IN A MANNER THAT IS CLEAR AS TO WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW?
(this is your responsibility as a learner... ASK THE RIGHT QUESTION AND YOU GET THE RIGHT ANSWER!)
One goo place to start is getting the right "books"... like the Wright DXT program is a really good starting point... when I started repainting...I had no idea what an alpha was myself...
It is very useful... and he explains fairly well what is what...
Notice the caveat in the alpha explanation..."This tutorial is just to help you with handling the filesThis tutorial is just to help you with handling the files"
but what I assume you were looking for is how do you USE the alpha channel... so you see... tutorials sometimes are no real help... but directly aimed questions and carefully examined answers DO help
Speaking of long winded folks... here I am... so I CAN HELP WITH WHAT I KNOW but would prefer to do it with PMs or email... I think it would be more productive...
short pointed questions and short answers can be very well taken care by posting too... but for continued learning.. FOR ME... personalized approaches are better...
So... figure out EXACTLY what you want to know... ARTICULATE IT SUCCINTLY... and I will get your answer or point you to a resource that can....
Cheers...

I just remembered an old joke that seems germane to this discussion... Little Johnny comes to mom and ask: "Where do I come from?"... and mommy goes into the old routine: "Well, mommy and daddy
love each other so much... ending with the birds and the bees and 'in mommy's tummy', etc. Johnny looks perplexed and says: "OH... Tommy the new kid next door told me he comes from Tulsa, Oklahoma...
mmm...??
 
Allow me to shed a little light on texture fo

Allow me to shed a little light on texture formats for those that don't know...

A standard Windows bitmap uses 24 bits per pixel - eight each for red, blue, and green (RGB). So, if you do the math, you'll find that one file that's 1024x1024 will be exactly three megabytes. Eight bits per channel allows for 256 shades each, so the number of colors available is 256*256*256, or 16,777,216. The only place for this format in FS is in the 2D panel backgrounds.


Next, we come to 32 bit files. The extra eight bits means you have a fourth channel, called the Alpha channel. Since you only need the RGB channels for the visible image, what's the fourth one for? The answer depends on how the model, or the part that uses the texture file, is coded. It can either be used for reflection or transparency. (But don't confuse this with dynamic shine, which is completely independent from any texture files.) An alpha channel that is full white makes for either no reflection or opaque. Fully black makes for fully chromed reflection or an invisible part. With the eight bits, that channel allows for 256 degrees of either. And with the fourth byte per pixel, the size of a 1024x1024 texture file is 4 MB. When you have a release like a Posky 747 that uses several 1024x1024 textures in 32-bit, you can end up with some pretty sizable texture folders. 32 bit also works for a 2D panel, but it's a waste of space.


The remedy for those large folders is to use compressed images. FS uses DXT (DirectX Texture) compression. Unlike jpg, DXT textures use a fixed compression algorithm. The filesize of a DXT3 texture is exactly 25% of what a 32 bit texture would be. But there are limits. In addition to the slight loss of detail in the RGB channels, you no longer get 256 levels available in the Alpha. Instead, you only get eight. Where you get smooth gradients in transparency from a 32 bit file, such as cloud textures, only having eight degrees of transparency can look a little strange. DXT1 compresses even further, and allows for only on or off in the Alpha channel. If you try to use either of these in a 2D panel, they won't work at all.


Then you can throw MIP's into the mix. Loosely translated, Multum In Parvo is Latin for Much In Little. When an AI or multiplayer plane is viewed from a distance, there is no way to see all the detail provided in those 1024x1024 textures. The solution is to use a reduced version. So using MIP layers in a texture embeds progressively smaller versions of the same image. FS can then reduce the graphics load by using those smaller layers as the model gets farther from the user's viewpoint. Generally speaking, MIP's add 33% to the size of the file, but the gain in performance outweighs the gain in size. This can also be a culprit that causes blurred textures if your graphics card can't handle them. Instead of choosing the correct MIP layer, they all get blended into one blurry image. Fortunately, most PC's on the market now are plenty capable of dealing with them.
 
ViperPilot2 said:
I appreciate all the replies, offers and suggestions regarding my initial post on this topic. You all obviously have an understanding WAY above what little I know.

I find the more I try and read up on the subject, the more confused I get; mainly on understanding what appear to be basic terms. For example...

What is an Alpha Channel? What are Layers? What do I choose... DXT1 or DXT3? What Layer goes on top of what? (I know what you're thinking... jeez, this is Repainting 001 stuff; what's so hard about it?)

The Tutorials for Paint.net, GIMP, etc. that I have read already assume one has a good grasp of the fundamentals and the terms used.

I'm thinking someone needs to write a Repainting for Stupid Idiots and Rank Amateurs (read: ME), because to me, it's like trying to translate a cuneiform tablet!

Sorry if I sound like a rank noob; it just so happens that... well, I am.

:isadizzy:
Click to expand...

Viper,

To build on Tom's great answer,

Layers- Many of the photo manipulation and painting programs use layers. Layers are like transparencies stacked one on top of the other, each with part of the picture. Looking down through all of them, you get a complete picture. I used Paintshop Pro 9 and to a lesser degree Adobe Creative Suite1. These use files with dot PSP and dot PSD extensions. They also work with bitmaps and Jpeg's (both are picture formats, JPEG is more for photo's), which are single layer files.

Most paint kit files are either Paintshop Pro or Photoshop file to allow repainting of the base surface while retaining the panel lines, door and hatch details, markings and other details by keeping these details on upper layers. Normally, you'll have weathering layers on top, markings and details in the middle and base colors toward the bottom of the pile. The very bottom layer will be a background layer.

Some times paint kit developers will include a layer that shows the wire frame mapping of the model parts to aid in positioning details and markings.

The beauty of these programs, is that you can manipulate the opacity of each layer, so you can draw panel lines in dark and then fade them to a proper scale level. You can copy and paste, erase, paint or what ever on different layers to achieve the effect you want. A the end you can save the file in many formats including the bitmap format that Flightsim uses.

Obviously I can't completely describe all that these programs are capable of (not that I even know all that they do! LOL!)

To convert Bitmaps to DDS files (FSX) or the DXT files, you need a program like DXTBMP convertor. This program also allows you to import or create an "Alpha" channel as well as save a file with or without MIPs.

Hope this helps!

Dave
 
Gaucho...

Thank you for the advice. As you can see, a little guidance (and a stiff kick in the ass) can get the cerebellum going, and things start to become clearer...

Tom and Dave...

Thank you very much for your explanations! It's the perfect base for which I can start to wrap my mind around these terms and have a better understanding, via the Tutorials, of how all this works.

Time for some more reading, and then, choose the proper paint program...

;)
 
Hi,
An interesting thread here and all of it is over my head :isadizzy:about repainting, and I have tried but got befuddled early on and abandoned all attempts at making a start.

However, I do have a project which had I the skill I would do and it is this.... LAGO produced an SM79, without the hump of Manueles plane and I found a lovely image on line, but where would I begin if I wanted a repaint of this?:sheep:Assistance appreciated,
View attachment 92185
Andy
 
Again... vague questions beg vagu answers....

lemonadedrinker said:
Hi,
An interesting thread here and all of it is over my head :isadizzy:about repainting, and I have tried but got befuddled early on and abandoned all attempts at making a start.

However, I do have a project which had I the skill I would do and it is this.... LAGO produced an SM79, without the hump of Manueles plane and I found a lovely image on line, but where would I begin if I wanted a repaint of this?:sheep:Assistance appreciated,
View attachment 92185
Andy
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "where would I begin"?
First of all, do you have a proper graphics program like PSP or Photoshop? Anything lesser than that is JUST NOT going to work... It is too detailed a paint job...
lots of subdued shadings, details, etc.
1. Do you have model of this aircraft? If so... very simple... make a copy of the textures and work on the textures...
If you mean "How do I repaint it?...
Make a template of each texture with the base color... over it... add a layer for the shadings....
Then, another layer for insignia and other decorating details...
Then, another layer for details... (panel lines, small items, etc. - remember that those details
are going to be superimposed on the paint work... i.e.: lines, rivets, etc. should not be covered or obscured by insignia or emblems, etc. but rather, SHOW THROUGH
Then another layer for adjustments and additions... and yet another layer for a "final touch" to blend the relative transparency of all...weathering, etc.

That would be a beginning... of course depending on your artistic acumen and 'know how"...
If this is an early attempt at repainting... I suggest you start with a simpler paint job... this one requires some frigging talent... or
it will turn out something just short of laughable... Again... you give no clue as to what you know and can do...
Obviously then... the answer per force has to be this vague....

mmm... I just re-read your post.. and I think I jumped the gun... or maybe not... thousand pardons if I did...
Maybe I just did what I told on that joke in my last post... Did you mean... where do I start to get someone to do the repaint???
 
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