Introducing the Avia 51
- Thread starter Milton Shupe
- Start date
Need Input on Avia 51 Cockpit and Cabin Design Strategy
Heretofore, no information or pictures have been found from even the best sources on what the interiors and cockpits look like for the "51" or "156".
Although I plan to wait a bit to see if new materials surface, I want to begin planning a strategy to develop ideal interiors for these aircraft.
I would like you ideas on what you think an early 30's era aircraft like these developed by a gentleman who worked previously at Lockheed would have designed.
It certainly would be more advanced than the Ford Tri-motor interior.
Lockheed had some interesting aircraft on the drawing boards when Robert Nebasář left there with the Orion, the "10", and a few others.
So, given Robert Nebasář's background, his design accomplishments, and the exterior looks and construction of these two aircraft, what would be your best guess as to what the "51" and "156" would look like in the cockpit and in the cabin.
Heretofore, no information or pictures have been found from even the best sources on what the interiors and cockpits look like for the "51" or "156".
Although I plan to wait a bit to see if new materials surface, I want to begin planning a strategy to develop ideal interiors for these aircraft.
I would like you ideas on what you think an early 30's era aircraft like these developed by a gentleman who worked previously at Lockheed would have designed.
It certainly would be more advanced than the Ford Tri-motor interior.
Lockheed had some interesting aircraft on the drawing boards when Robert Nebasář left there with the Orion, the "10", and a few others.
So, given Robert Nebasář's background, his design accomplishments, and the exterior looks and construction of these two aircraft, what would be your best guess as to what the "51" and "156" would look like in the cockpit and in the cabin.
For the period, and considering the early stages of design, I tend to think the inside of the Avia to be more like the top photo. Less comfort, but able to seat those of importance within those of the design crew. Then once considering the actual production model, a bit more comfortable in the tri-motor. A guestimate surely.
nigel richards
Charter Member
Just a thought...
As a designer, I'd start from the marketing point of view.
So what do we have/know already about this ship?
!. Only six passengers; This isn't any old cheap joy ride aircraft (pile 'em in and take their money).
This aircraft is all about exclusive travel in style. For people demanding and getting luxurious comfort/style etc.
And they're prepared to pay for it too!
Yep! A Lady and Gentleman's aircraft.
You never ever forget the ladies...when they want something, they get it!
So design for the Gents...via the ladies.
Wealthy fashionable ladies?...Europe was knee deep during the '30's
This designer knew his stuff, did his homework, had some fresh ideas and experience from America and was going to make a mint in Europe!
2. Robert Nebasář has gone to great lengths to ensure a quiet flight; fuselage soundproofing, specially inlaid wooden floors etc.
Hide the wood? After all that trouble and cost, would you?
Are you kidding? They'll be immaculately polished...with a central passage of luxury carpet to set it off (and protect).
Colour, well potential customers would be given a choice...but there's only one colour for VIP's...isn't there!
3. I bet before leaving the good old US of A, albeit with a heavy heart, our designer had taken a peep at all that competion had to offer (and took notes when having a beer with other dreamers of the same period).
That's why my intuition keep saying things like Beech Staggerwing!
This aircraft well and truly reeks of that kind of interior styling...Plush leather upholstry, wooden deco...maybe even a 'deluxe' special order Rosewood Panel. Brass bezels?...
What? Panel! That's only there for the busdriver!
True! But these wealthy travellers aren't going to be too chuffed sitting there with their cigars in brass ashtrays, looking over the shoulder of some London cabby with his scruffy dashboard.
So the panel for my five bits worth; HAS to be part of the illusion!
Give us designers the chance and our imagination runs wild.
And sometimes, just sometimes; it pays off.
For Robert Nebasář this one didn't. It probably came down to wrong time and place...
...and the gathering darkness of WW2.
As a designer, I'd start from the marketing point of view.
So what do we have/know already about this ship?
!. Only six passengers; This isn't any old cheap joy ride aircraft (pile 'em in and take their money).
This aircraft is all about exclusive travel in style. For people demanding and getting luxurious comfort/style etc.
And they're prepared to pay for it too!
Yep! A Lady and Gentleman's aircraft.
You never ever forget the ladies...when they want something, they get it!
So design for the Gents...via the ladies.
Wealthy fashionable ladies?...Europe was knee deep during the '30's
This designer knew his stuff, did his homework, had some fresh ideas and experience from America and was going to make a mint in Europe!
2. Robert Nebasář has gone to great lengths to ensure a quiet flight; fuselage soundproofing, specially inlaid wooden floors etc.
Hide the wood? After all that trouble and cost, would you?
Are you kidding? They'll be immaculately polished...with a central passage of luxury carpet to set it off (and protect).
Colour, well potential customers would be given a choice...but there's only one colour for VIP's...isn't there!
3. I bet before leaving the good old US of A, albeit with a heavy heart, our designer had taken a peep at all that competion had to offer (and took notes when having a beer with other dreamers of the same period).
That's why my intuition keep saying things like Beech Staggerwing!
This aircraft well and truly reeks of that kind of interior styling...Plush leather upholstry, wooden deco...maybe even a 'deluxe' special order Rosewood Panel. Brass bezels?...
What? Panel! That's only there for the busdriver!
True! But these wealthy travellers aren't going to be too chuffed sitting there with their cigars in brass ashtrays, looking over the shoulder of some London cabby with his scruffy dashboard.
So the panel for my five bits worth; HAS to be part of the illusion!
Give us designers the chance and our imagination runs wild.
And sometimes, just sometimes; it pays off.
For Robert Nebasář this one didn't. It probably came down to wrong time and place...
...and the gathering darkness of WW2.
nigel richards
Charter Member
Getting closer. Plenty to do yet. Once I get this side finished, there's more to do yet on the other side.
Right-Click, View image for best results.
Beautiful work!
nigel richards
Charter Member
Surprise, surprise...
Well wadda yer know...wooden floors...
this was '30's luxury interiors.
take a look at these floors, doors and panels. (Good designers pinch each other's ideas all the time)
http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=...=el&sa=X&gbv=2&rlz=1W1GPEA_el&tbm=isch&itbs=1
http://www.google.gr/images?hl=el&s...2858l5-1.1.0.1l3l0&oi=image_result_group&sa=X
and the '18 wasn't far behind either
http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=...a=X&ei=i-nTTpX3HoiA-wax9uHbDg&ved=0CBAQ9QEwAA
So if I was thinking of designing a panel (God help us all!) for a ship like this, with absolutely no reference whatsoever to go on,
I'd take a darn good look at the serious competition, draw up the ideal panel layout for a queen like this, grab or make the prettiest, brassiest gauges I could get my mitts on and;
Have the time of my life!
Well wadda yer know...wooden floors...
this was '30's luxury interiors.
take a look at these floors, doors and panels. (Good designers pinch each other's ideas all the time)
http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=...=el&sa=X&gbv=2&rlz=1W1GPEA_el&tbm=isch&itbs=1
http://www.google.gr/images?hl=el&s...2858l5-1.1.0.1l3l0&oi=image_result_group&sa=X
and the '18 wasn't far behind either
http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=...a=X&ei=i-nTTpX3HoiA-wax9uHbDg&ved=0CBAQ9QEwAA
So if I was thinking of designing a panel (God help us all!) for a ship like this, with absolutely no reference whatsoever to go on,
I'd take a darn good look at the serious competition, draw up the ideal panel layout for a queen like this, grab or make the prettiest, brassiest gauges I could get my mitts on and;
Have the time of my life!
From Avia 51 documentation:
"Seating accommodation is provided in the cabin for five
Also, see attached
"Seating accommodation is provided in the cabin for five
passengers, the seats having deep cushions and head rests.Ventilation is by ducts from cowls in the wing roots,and adjustable ventilators are placed at each seat. Heatingis by hot air from a muff around the exhaust pipe ofthe central engine. The cabin has a length of 10 ft., aheight of 5 ft. 1 in. and a width of 4 ft. 11 in. Theheight is not sufficient to give room to stand upright, butin any case it is doubtful if there is room to walk aboutin such a small cabin. Behind the cabin is a lavatory, andthere are three luggage and mail compartments, one
forward, one in the cabin, and one behind the cabin."Also, see attached
This is what I had to design from, a top view only. Side views of same are hidden by the engine nacelles so its anyone's guess.I shaped the top to provide the wing interface appearance as in this 3 view.The 156 3-view gives a better look but there are so many potential errors in the 156 3-view that I do not trust it.Thanks NigelMilton, I just got finished sending you an email. Something I noticed. Well, keep that in mind. But look further at how the top of the canopy is above the wing. Also how the height in the glass framing ties in.Possible to correct?
Generally, I say that you are likely spot on.
The failure of the 51 and 156 was mainly economics; 5 passengers paying the bill for 2 staff, fuel and aircraft maintenance and depreciation.
The 14-passenger 57 was above the economics break point and my view is that the 51 and 156 were proving grounds for Nebasar's skills and ideas and set the stage for future products like the 57. It allowed prototyping of many new concepts and ideas that were very soon followed by retractable gear into the nacelles of a low wing monoplane.
nigel richards
Charter Member
Just a final thought
Milton, would you interpret the cabin of 5 as separately divided from the pilot by any chance?
This material laid in almost black surrounds could make a for very handsome panel background;
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-53244031/stock-photo-wood-texture.html
Milton, would you interpret the cabin of 5 as separately divided from the pilot by any chance?
This material laid in almost black surrounds could make a for very handsome panel background;
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-53244031/stock-photo-wood-texture.html
I understand Milton. The 3-views are misleading likely in several respects. Those who are not into modeling in the form you are, did not have the reference materials on hand like you/we do like we do now. Which, from looking at the enlarged views I have sent you, in relation to where I'm noticing things make sense. I hope. This is the only reason I moved forward and brought these areas to your attention. I may be walking in a direction you'd rather not mess with. Although if you did, it could, and would make your work a better representation.
I understand Milton. The 3-views are misleading likely in several respects. Those who are not into modeling in the form you are, did not have the reference materials on hand like you/we do like we do now. Which, from looking at the enlarged views I have sent you, in relation to where I'm noticing things make sense. I hope. This is the only reason I moved forward and brought these areas to your attention. I may be walking in a direction you'd rather not mess with. Although if you did, it could, and would make your work a better representation.
My charge is to model to the materials I have with the best of my ability. Limited materials simply make the charge more challenging.
As usual, with any artist or modeler, some "license" is taken when presented with conflicting info, or lack of same.
The pictures we now have came after the modeling was done.
I have used a similar texture for the floors on a temporary basis. I doubt that the panel was wooden.
The cockpit was divided from the cabin with a door access.
"A door in the front wall of the cabin communicates
with the pilots' cockpit, which has two seats side by side.The chief pilot occupies the left seat, while the secondpilot, who is also the radio operator, occupies the rightseat. The windscreen is of non-splintering glass, and theside windows can be opened. View upward is afforded bythe cockpit skylight, but to the back the view is cutoff, and a mirror is so fitted that the pilot can see in it
what is behind the machine."Also meant to post this passenger layout earlier.
Also note the shape of the cockpit overhead windows (likely more accurate than the previous one I posted).
I did this temporary interior texture to get rid of the template colors and match with the real world exterior paint scheme developed by Avia.
Seats are temporary for now, but may use with light mods later.
Once we have some design ideas, I will proceed with modeling.
Seats are temporary for now, but may use with light mods later.
Once we have some design ideas, I will proceed with modeling.
Another design point of reference is the attached done by Urs Burkhardt for the our Spartan Executive and Beech 18, both 30's design products.
Of course the Beech 18 interior is now a bit dated and worn.
Of course the Beech 18 interior is now a bit dated and worn.
Hurricane91
SOH-CM-2023
The textures by OleBoy and Matt Wynn are terrific and set off the beautiful form of these aircraft. Great artwork!
I am still hopeful that some interior shots will be made available from Czech sources, but if not, we can probably get close.
From what I have read, great hopes went into these aircraft. Each were hand-built with great attention to detail. I agree that the intended clientele were wealthy travelers and this would be reflected in the interior appointments.
My guess on the passenger cabin is based on the description of the flooring, and the assumption that Czech decor of the period was conservative and somewhat muted.
For the floor, walnut may have been chosen for it's durability and lighter weight than other hardwoods. Since it was inlaid, some of the aluminum floor structure would be visible. The wood may have extended up the sides of the cabin wall a foot or so to prevent scuffing.
The airline would have specified leather seating for durability. Rather than black, they may have had a dark oxblood finish. The fore and aft bulkhads would also have been leather padded to protect passengers in turbulent weather. Lever type door latches would be recessed.
A dome light or two would provide general lighting, with a separate lamp for each seat. Cabin windows would be provided with opaque shades or curtains.
Pictured below is the "smoking salon" of the He-111C with club seating arrangement. The Czech version would not have been as austere.
View attachment 53241
I am still hopeful that some interior shots will be made available from Czech sources, but if not, we can probably get close.
From what I have read, great hopes went into these aircraft. Each were hand-built with great attention to detail. I agree that the intended clientele were wealthy travelers and this would be reflected in the interior appointments.
My guess on the passenger cabin is based on the description of the flooring, and the assumption that Czech decor of the period was conservative and somewhat muted.
For the floor, walnut may have been chosen for it's durability and lighter weight than other hardwoods. Since it was inlaid, some of the aluminum floor structure would be visible. The wood may have extended up the sides of the cabin wall a foot or so to prevent scuffing.
The airline would have specified leather seating for durability. Rather than black, they may have had a dark oxblood finish. The fore and aft bulkhads would also have been leather padded to protect passengers in turbulent weather. Lever type door latches would be recessed.
A dome light or two would provide general lighting, with a separate lamp for each seat. Cabin windows would be provided with opaque shades or curtains.
Pictured below is the "smoking salon" of the He-111C with club seating arrangement. The Czech version would not have been as austere.
View attachment 53241