Project Dornier Do-17z2

as always, this is a touchy subject.
one walks a tightrope between
historical accuracy of the model,
and repugnance for what the symbol stands for,
or worse, supporting what it stands for.
then, there's the fear of people
misinterpreting your intentions.
we walk a fine line indeed.
how does one go about having it both ways?

over the years, i've seen many options,
none of which has appealed to me.
back in my multi-player days,
i was kommander of the luftwaffe wing.
not because of ideology, but,
because there was a game vacancy
that needed to be filled.
i repainted my fw190 tail symbol,
adding four lines, turning it into
what looked like a diamond window.
i don't know if it was ever noticed
and, yes, it was kinda hokie,
but, it served my purpose.

okay, enough stories.
the question is what to do.
how about providing two sets of textures?
one, historically accurate,
the other, unoffensive...politically correct.
provide the option and let the individual decide.

in the end, it's the artist's decision.
 
Hello Smilo, Hello Ivan,
I´m glad I´ve not taken the lid off a pressure cooker with the emblem issue, and that there is not as much ill feeling about it as I thought. Neither does there seem to be much pressure in the opposite direction - i.e. in favour.

Anyway, in all these years I have never made a plane with the swastika on it, and don´t really want to start now.
It´s a pity that Hitler took property of a sign with remarkably positive connotations as it was with the Indians and other cultures, and seemingly turned the hooks the other way around. The Hooked Cross, "Hackenkreuz", then acquired such vile connotations, that I have a thing about it, I´m afraid.

The eagle is much nicer anyway!

Ivan, I did mistake the reasoning behind your query about the Nose/Fuselage division line, but I also did understand your suggestion that by just exchanging the nose from this line frontwards, one could have about 4 different variants!

Anyway, it did not take more than 20 minutes to experiment and discard a different layout involving re-grouping the parts and defining the Nose Group from that division line to the front. Didactically it was instructing anyway, and I did not by any means get upset about it!

In any case, with all the ups and downs experimentating possibilities, at the moment the build seems very pleasing.
Apart from the textures, that now have markings on them, the only build difference with the last model I posted to the model in its present state, is the rear gun, whose barrel is in Canopy High Wing.

I think I´ll tackle the paneling next, which will be a little arduous, before I post a new model update.

Smilo, have you discovered any issues flying the plane? Let me know if you have any preferences as to how it behaves.
After fine-tuning the .air file to fit the engine and aircraft parameters as closely as possible to specified power and performance, I also increased the MOI´s, as the AI Do-17 from which the .air file came from, seemed far too light.

OK, got to rush - I have a class!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
Hello Smilo,
Well, that could be an option, but I´d prefer to put something on it.
How about the Eisernes Kreuz - Iron Cross? It could be cooler than
the Eagle, which may be a bit kitschy.

Then another possibily better one I´ve seen, is simply a black "X"
inside a white diamond, which actually looks quite good, and is
similar to your older solution of a kind of window.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 

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i'm sorry to say,
i'm less than ecstatic about the black X.
it just doesn't seem to fit.
my opinion, of course.

i do like the Eisernes Kreuz,
except, there seems to be
an over abundance of iron crosses on the aircraft.
one more, even though different,
seems to be a bit much.
again, just my opinion.

i forgot to mention earlier,
my apologies...i am unable
to give the bird a decent wringing out.
at this time, i fly with keyboard only,
and have forgotten most of the commands.
it feels like a major accomplishment
if i can get her into the air
and trim to fly straight and level,
which, by the way, has always been a challenge.
 
Hello Smilo,
Well, the Iron Cross was on the tails of German WW1 aircraft and is the Luftwaffe symbol now, so there are lots around!
The problem with the black X is that it doesn´t exist, so it´s a reason not to put it on.
Anyway, I´ll see what I decide. Perhaps if anything, the best option is nothing, as you suggested before!!

Don´t worry about the testing while flying.
At any rate, your opinions have given fruitful results. Thanks!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
thank you, Stephan, i'm glad to have been
able to help in some small way.

the more i think about it,
the more i lean toward nothing.

i just had a semi funny thought...
leave it at nothing, with the exception
of 1 pixel dots where each
of the 20, right angles would be.
therefore, if someone wanted it,
they could follow the dots with Paint
(or any other like program)
and fill it in themselves.

finally, the only good reason
i can see for adding the symbol,
would be so there is a good target
for pilots to blow the hell out of.

just a few more opinions, of course.
 
Just my opinion, but the German Eagle seems more appropriate for a bird from the Great War era.
The Black X on a while background looks too much like the Spanish Air Force from their Civil War in my opinion.
There are lots of other options, so perhaps one can still be found that is suitable.

Perhaps a Greek Letter Delta or Phi or something like what I attached?
The first is just a "non-Swastika" and the other is a German "High Cross".
Perhaps a Nordic / Germanic Rune?
A Russian letter?

How about a Greek Lambda in honour of the Spartans?

- Ivan.
 

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good one, Ivan.
cast my vote for
"The first is just a "non-Swastika"."
simple, and yet,
just different enough
so as not to be offensive.
maybe, it should be called
the swas-T-ika
 
...or, in my case, a lot of talk,
with nothing to show for it.

-partially complete japanese carrier
-partially complete destroyer
-partially complete liberty ship
-partially completed a-20
-gave up, but, still think about,
building a physical a-20 model.
gave up when i couldn't get
scaled drawings from my printer.
 
Hello folks,
Sometimes one gets stuck and it´s hard to continue "production", but then, a small success spurs one on to continue.
Anyhow,there are so many other things requiring our attention that it can take time...

Well! I agree with Smilo and really like Ivan´s symbol for tea - err.. -sorry the 4 "T" symbol. So I´ll use that one! Thanks.
I was trying to find out what kind of cross it is, but haven´t found any cross-variants of this "non-swastika 4 T" type. Do you know the name?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
gosh, a new unused symbol?
how cool would that be?
there has to be someone
or group somewhere,
that's used it at some point in time.
i'm intrigued

quick...patent it
 
"X for tea" on the fins! V7.

Hello Smilo, hello Ivan,
Ha ha! For the moment it´ll be the "X for tea" symbol!

OK, I´ve just put bars on the ends of the black-on-white cross (I agree with Ivan,
it´s very much like the Spanish Civil War marking - I hadn´t thought that far).
The 4-T X symbol looks very cool and is very discrete.

Thanks a lot! Here´s the model again - this time V7, for your fun in the meantime...
I´m still working on hairline cracks and lines of pearls, and I haven´t forgotten
the extra windows...

Cheers,
Aletorylamp
 

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Hello folks!
I´ve been a bit lazy lately, but am resuming the build.
Re. the extra cheek and chin windows on the right side of the nose, I´m trying to make that part of the nose section similar to the Baltimore, so that the windows are of the same transparent type as the nose glazing, with a visible cabin interior. Hopefully I can fit a grey bulkhead behind that with no bleeds.
Let´s see how it goes.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp
 
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hello Stephan, nice to see you back.
i hope the break was beneficial.

last night, i was watching the series, World at War.
it was the Britain Stands Alone episode.
there were film clips of Do17s taking off
and the nose windows were right there.
i'd never noticed them before.
 
Hello Smilo,
Yes, sometimes one just doesn´t see everything at the first few glances.
It´s proving very hard indeed to find a bleed-free way to make the extra windows transparent, and I´m trying out different build combinations for the 4 front fuselage components (from the leading edge forwards).
If the worst comes to the worst, I may have to revert to texturing them after all. That way we will have the lesser of the evils...
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp.
 
i think you know how i feel about it,
but, i'll repeat it anyway,
it's your hobby...your project.
make it easy on yourself.
 
Hello again, Smilo,
Thanks for your moral support!
I just can´t get a bleedfree forward fuselage to have the extra transparent windows.
Well, so textured versions on the right nose are shown in one screenshot below, and the left side also has a little textured window to be seen on the other screenshot, just below and aft of the trailing edge.
I wonder if this is OK?
Cheers,
Aleatoryulamp
 

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well, if you're asking my opinion,
i'd say it looks fine...not perfect, but fine.
(i'm sure that helps a bunch)

looking at your screen shot,
i'm reminded of the film clips
i saw on world at war the last night.
i'd forgotten about the large edelweiss
where your eagle is.
not that i'm suggesting anything,
i'm just saying i saw it.
 
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