Project Dornier Do-17z2

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Thanks for your feedback!
Yes, it´s only the lesser evil unfortunately, but at least it´s something.

I´m not sure what you mean about the large edelweis.
At the moment, on the fins I have the non-stastika or swas-T-ika (the 4-T´s cross) instead of the Eagle.

I´ve also seen a white horizontal band on the top part of the fins, but I don´t know if it was on the units that had the bomb-carrying eagle nose-art.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

somewhere in all my old stuff,
i have images of squadron nose art.
as i recall, there was one that used
the edelweiss as it's logo.
(google edelweiss and scroll down to images)
the Do17 i saw in the film clip had one
painted where your eagle is.

i see if i can locate the folder it all that stuff.

 

[smilo]

wow...wonder of wonders, i found it.
check out 8/jg5
what i saw was not a red shield
with yellow flower...instead,
it was just a large white flower,
(like the yelow one)
with yellow center and no stem.

 

[Ivan]

last night, i was watching the series, World at War.
it was the Britain Stands Alone episode.
there were film clips of Do17s taking off
and the nose windows were right there.
i'd never noticed them before.

Hello Smilo,

The Dornier 17 is just such a blend of shapes that I still find new things even though I must have looked at a thousand photographs by now, sometimes I still see things I had not noticed before. Notice how some of the folks making drawings forget features?
If you have been watching video of the aeroplane, did you see the offset chin and asymmetrical canopy frame that I was describing?

Hello Aleatorylamp,

There are going to be limitations to what you can build with the whole aeroplane in AF99.
There are going to be many features you know how to build but just don't have the Parts or Components.
Just do your best with what you have.
It is already looking much better than I would have expected at the start of the project.

By the way, I know you like the Bombardier, but would those extra Parts help with your Nose section?
If you want to see a serious Parts struggle, check out this thread from a few years ago:
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/57312-Design-Study-for-an-Ugly-Bird

I know from that project that AF99's Parts limit is really 1199 and not 1200....

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan, hello Smilo,
Thanks for your support! I haven´t altogether discarded putting in the extra transparent windows in the right nose section yet, and I´m still trying things.

The objective is to have the interior walls visible, in the area forward of the windshield, slanting down backwards to the top of the transparent windows and then verticaly down. A slanted and a vertical grey insignia bulkhead then block off the Nose section from the rest of the inner rear fuselage in Body Main.

Forward nose frame and nose sides are halves, two l/r component, the same as the area below the glass canopy upto the leading edges. Each side has its own texture, inner sides dark grey.

Although in general it looks quite good, there are 2 rather annoying problems: The bulkheads momentarily disappear and allow the inside of the nose panels to bleed through when viewed from slightly rear side angles, and the glue-sequence for the cabin floor and crew will not work anymore, although the corresponding listing in Body Main is intact, and the cabin floor often disappears.

I´ll see if I have a better idea to try out. For the moment, parts count is at 149.6%, the Bombardier is still in, and AF99 still compiles, but I´m safe-guarding the other version with textured chin and cheek windows though, as that already looks quite acceptable and the build is clean and quite bleed-free.

Update: Putting the nose components into Nose Left and Nose Right helps a great deal, but there is still interaction with the cabin, which lies in Body Main and overlaps the lower forward part, which is in the Nose groups. Getting that area into Body Main is even worse because then the bulkheads don´t work at all like they should, so that´s out too. For the moment, I´m sticking to textured extra window, and wait and see if I can come up with something new for the transparent ones. It´s not really a matter of parts count, because even at 149.9% all the parts are there, it compiles, but it´s too complicated for AF99 to prevent all the bleeds.

BTW: Thanks Smilo for all the squadron symbols! If you like, then I can put an edelweis symbol on the fins instead of the 4-T´s "swas-T-ka" cross. I gather the bomb-dropping eagle would stay on the sides in the front?

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

oh no, no, leave the T-ka on the fins.
the edelweiss was just an observation.
an alternative to the eagle...if desired.
apologies for the confusion.

i flew her for a little bit yesterday.
she's a very nice looking model.
as i said, i'm flying with keyboard only.
as always, it's tricky flying straight and level.
i never have been able to do it properly.
i always thought a click or two
of positive or negative trim would do the trick,
but, it never seems to work that way.
oh well, there's always auto pilot.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Thanks for your good words! I´m glad you like the plane, and I think it´s looking quite nice too. I´m glad Ivan also said it´s coming out better than expected! Actually, with the inhabited cabin and transparent nose, I suppose it is already quite an accomplishment for AF99, so I think I can count my lucky stars!

I understand now how you meant the edelweiss symbol - it´s nose-art! I´ll try and provide alternative textures then! (I´d thought you meant exchanging the initial eagle on the fins).

Re. elevator trim: At the moment I have it set at 0.5 in the .air file for the autopilot, but the intention is to lower it to 0.25 to make it more effective for manual flying. You could try and reduce it for the time being, if you like!

I re-read Ivan´s details on propeller animation in the thread he mentioned yesterday, and with the present model (textured chin, cheek and waist windows), I have enough parts to put in propeller blurs.

So, when that and the panelling is done, I´ll post an updated version for you to enjoy!
Then I´ll try and SCASM the virtual cockpit , and see which colour scheme I can supply as a second livery for the upload.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

since i don't have aired installed,
i'll patiently wait for the trim modification.
if you decide to do it.

as for the fin markings,
i'm strongly leaning toward the T-ka,
located higher and more centered,
as on the post #14 image.
of course, that's my preference
and as always, the final decision is yours.

i'm getting anxious for completion,
so i can rename it to the default Do17
and see how she looks in BOB missions.
this comment is by no means intended
to be taken as pressure to finish.
i've been waiting for this aircraft
for a decade, so, another month
or two is nothing in the overall scheme of things.
to be honest, i would have been happy
with one of your earlier versions.

 

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp, Smilo,

You know you can't really flight test using a keyboard.... but it IS a way to pan around and look.
Have you thought about flying with the Mouse?

Regarding my old development machine, there is the possibility that it isn't really a failing video card but is just a failing monitor.
The problem here is that I will need to buy another monitor. (I want a bigger one even if it is not a monitor problem!)
Do you know of a good model 4:3 ratio Flat Screen monitor? Most of the ones I have seen are wide screen and I don't like those.

If you still want to experiment with Transparent Windows, check out my assembly sequence for Radial Engines. I think it MIGHT work.

Regarding the emblems, keep in mind that those are Jagd Geschwader emblems and not Kampf Geschwader. (Fighter Group versus Bomber Group)
I have never been all that particular about historical unit markings as you can see by the symbol on my Macchi 202.

- Ivan.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo, hello Ivan,
Very enjoyable and productive, these exchanges!

I´m glad that the old development machine will still be working, Ivan! I suppose it won´t be easy to find a 3/4 ratio flat-screen monitors, though. They all seem wider, although mine is not too bad - a Samsung at 2.6/4.1, not 3/4, but I´ve seen worse.

With the Dornier 17, for the moment I´ll just do the current livery, and use the T-ka with Smilo´s recommended better positioning.

Then, regarding the transparency complications, I think I´ll opt towards keeping textured chin and cheek windows, as that is what has been working best.

There is one thing we haven´t mentioned yet: The panel! I further doctored up the P47D one, and came up with a panel that has a transparent bottom part like seen in the Do-17z2 cockpit photos, but you have to adjust the view-window to see the ground at the bottom instead of black. Here´s a screenshot! Hmmm... I should really use metric navigation instruments though, from the FW190 or the Me109 perhaps.

More later!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello again,
Here´s another pic.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

beauty...she's a keeper.
and i like the bombardier/gunner.
he fills out the crew.

i would agree with using german gauges.
no need to explain why.
i am a little bothered by the auto pilot, tho.
if you would like, i could poke around
and see what i can find.
back in the day,
i was a download gauges maniac.
where i stashed them is the question.

Ivan, what size monitor are you looking for?
okay, big as possible, right?
but what's the minimum?

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
I agree, altogether the way the plane is coming along seems quite satisfying, and I´m glad I could keep the bombardier - fortunately there was no extra need for parts.

I have just put in Ivan´s prop-blurs too! I find they do give quite a lot of ambience. Here´s 3 more screenshots.
You can tell I´m procrastinating the panelling...

One after the other, smaller details will now also be solved:
Probably the best thing for the autopilot would be to open a little window for it like you suggested for the throttles.
Of course... an old-fashioned looking autopilot would be great if it were to be had!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

since the auto pilot is rarely used,
i'm in favor of an auto pilot pop up window,
which would include adf.
i recall a set of ap indicator lights
located on the panel to let one know
if ap is activated and which functions are engaged.
it's kinda handy.

question; do you want to keep all gauges stock,
or, are "after market", acceptable?

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
OK, I´ll try and put what you mention into the panel using an extra communiactions/navigation window.

I was actually planning on keeping to stock + FSFS gauges, for the sake of simplicity, unless you have a more attractive suggestion.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

i was able to find a couple candidates last night,
but, nothing yet from the period.
also, they're from the allies and hard to read.
...still searching.

i do have a very basic ap setup from hubba.
it has a heading adjustment,
but, none for altitude.
what you do is manually attain the desired attitude,
engage the auto pilot altitude function and it's locked in.
personally, i prefer an altitude adjustment "knob",
but, this works in a pinch.
there is also the ap indicator lights i mentioned.
this is a very handy feature for quick reference.

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Granted, the existing autopilot does look a bit too modern... but the AP indicator lights seem rather appetizing!
Maybe you could let me know where to get it.

For the rest, I think I´ll just put in stock gauges for the moment, and continue with the panelling.
Once that gives me a sense of achievement, I´ll decide about the panel and I´ll get back to you on the subject.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

sounds good to me.

probably the best place to get the ap lights
would be from me. i'll take care of that, shortly.
unfortunately, i don't remember the author,
so, that will have to be noted in your read me.
while experimenting with them today,
i noticed, with the proper panel 3d rendering,
they are mouse clickable....BONUS

 

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Wow! Mouse clickable AND proper panel 3d rendering is great!
With FS98 gauges like the autopilot it happens that 3d rendering has to be switched off to make it stay mouseable.
OK, then, we´ll get to it when the time comes.

I MUST pull myself together and get down to the panelling on the textures!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

 

[smilo]

attached is the auto pilot gauge i spoke of.
sorry, i had to zip it to attach.
unzip and drop the AP1.gau into your cfs1 gauges folder.
add this line to the Do-17z2 panel.cfg
at the bottom of the [window00] entries,

gauge25=AP1, 80,390,30,80

save changes and close the panel.cfg
fire up cfs and go fly the Do17.
the ap indicator lights and switches
will be next to the throttle quadrant.

first, click the top switch to activate ap master.
clicking ALT will set to the current altitude.
SPD needs a ap console to function
HDG is set to current heading
clicking LVL disengages HDG and levels wings.

as i said, this is a basic unit,
but, it works.
i perfer fine tuning altitude and heading,
especially on bomb runs,
but that requires a more
complex system of gauges.

clicking the lower right +- HDG bug
on the stock
cessna_182.directional_gyro.gau
is a good starting point.

just for fun, add this line to the panel.cfg
right below the line mentioned above,

gauge26=cessna_182.directional_gyro, 110,390,80,80

save and close the panel.cfg
and go fly.
remember, the ap master and HDG
must be engaged for the heading bug
changes to take effect.

who says you need a stick to fly?
maybe in a fighter, but, not in a bomber.
straight and level is where it's at.